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Thread: Coaches proposals 1-3: Judging, qualifying rounds, and general comments

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    Coaches proposals 1-3: Judging, qualifying rounds, and general comments

    For the past six months a group of international coaches have been developing a set of proposals for the improvement of the International Judging System (IJS). These proposals were recently submitted to the ISU Singles and Pairs Technical Committee.
    Good to see such a comprehensive list of suggestions from those that are closest to knowing what it's all about in the first place. Hopefully the ISU will give serious consideration to many and move the sport forward.

    I'm especially in favor of eliminating the secret judges and the random draw.
    Last edited by Mathman; 05-27-2008 at 12:31 PM.

  2. #2
    L'art pour l'art Medusa's Avatar
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    Too many body and arm movements giving a look of flailing unless the entire program has as its concept the theme of a "tornado"
    --> YES!

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    Throwing tomatoes at corrupt judges Audrey19's Avatar
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    I agree with most of the proposals, especially the abolition of secret judging and the random draw and the abolition of the features.
    But what I don't get is #13: Award NO value if a jump or throw is marred by a fall- I see that the deductions should be higher, but no value...?
    And #20: the death spiral executed in the SP cannot be repeated in the LP-Why?

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    Vancouver 2010, 247.23, Bronze
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    The 2nd proposal sounds very reasonable, IMHO:

    ...using the marks of all the judges on the panels, deleting the highest and the lowest. To promote transparency show the list of judges in the protocols.

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    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    These proposals are the best thing I've read about figure skating, and thank you, visaliakid for bringing this document for our perusal and comments.

    Eash one deserves a thread on it's own for our comments.

    I like bringing back some form of the Qualifying Round. It should only be used for eliminating the excess participants, and the scores should not be carried over to the SPs and LPs for those qualified for them. The qualy round need not be more than 3 minutes but with emphasis on basics.

    Do I like more use of the Jumbothon. You bet I do. Why not give the audience there in the arena, some needed information, after all they paid big bucks to see the competitions. Yes, there will be loud boos but so what. That's what Sport is all about. I can assure Speedy, that his job will not be in jeopardy.

    So many other comments for each of these proposals!, like the elimination of the Flutz!!!, Can we not separate these into separate discussions.

    What a way to pass the Summer!!!!

    Joe

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    The burr up Speedy's Butt! visaliakid's Avatar
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    Does anyone else find it ironic that the list of proposals (in particular,the first two proposals relating to secret judging being abolished) comes from a group of anonymous coaches? They are not afraid to make the proposals, but apparently feel the need to not make their identity public?

    I think this speaks volumes! I am sure the formal proposals to the ISU properly identifies those who contributed to them. So why are their names not being published?

    I really dispise the level of secrecy that permeates this sport.

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    Custom Title NatachaHatawa's Avatar
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    Could we not create sub-threads for each of the rules to comment on as there are so many??

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    Trixie Schuba's biggest fan! blue dog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Audrey19 View Post
    I agree with most of the proposals, especially the abolition of secret judging and the random draw and the abolition of the features.
    But what I don't get is #13: Award NO value if a jump or throw is marred by a fall- I see that the deductions should be higher, but no value...?
    And #20: the death spiral executed in the SP cannot be repeated in the LP-Why?
    I actually agree with them here on both #13 and #20

    #13--if you fully rotate a jump and fall, you still get points. That is not what we are trying to promote here--pretty soon, skaters will attempt two quads, and land neither one, but still get points.

    #20--this would promote variety. The death spiral in the SP is required (last year it was that ugly one with the hand change; the year before, the horrendous one with the on ice split so that the girl can switch feet), and many just toss it into the LP so they can maximize their points. They should have to try a death spiral that fits into their music.

    I have another--skaters should NOT repeat a step sequence that they used in a short program in the LP. Last year, Elliott Halverson of the US admitted to choreographing the same straightline sequence for both the SP and the LP, because it would maximize his points--well, what happened to the music?

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    Gadfly and Bon Vivant Mafke's Avatar
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    Coaches proposals 1-3: Judging, qualifying rounds, and general comments

    1. Abolish secret judging.

    Secret judging has proven to be, perhaps, the greatest disappointment in the history of the ISU. The problem it was intended to solve is a serious one, in need of firm action, but secrecy has not accomplished it’s intended goal: to eliminate judging misconduct. It is perceived by the public, and many in the skating family, as a way to hide intrigues or deals among the judges and is detrimental to the credibility of the sport. It is unfair to the skaters and to the judges as well. Secret judging has proven not to be the cure needed, and has done harm instead.

    Thoughts? Comments?

  10. #10
    Down With It
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    well, couldn't agree more.

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    Gadfly and Bon Vivant Mafke's Avatar
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    Coaches' proposals # 2: Abolish random draw

    2. Abolish the random draw of the judges.

    Studies have proven that there is a wide a spread of marks and consequent placements among the judges, even among the top five competitors. Depending on which judges have been selected, the result could vary from first to fifth very easily. This is not fair to the skaters. It is like a coin toss.

    The random draw is another flaw of the system, especially when it does not guarantee a fairer result but is only used to make secret judging even more secret!

    The only way to compensate for this is by using the marks of all the judges on the panels, deleting the highest and the lowest. To promote transparency show the list of judges in the protocols.


    What do y'all think?

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    Gadfly and Bon Vivant Mafke's Avatar
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    Coaches' proposals # 3: Reinstate qualifying rounds

    3. Return to Qualifying rounds at ISU Championships.

    The present system used at ISU competitions, with the short program event lasting more than 9 hours, or breaking the event into two groups that compete at vastly different times or on different days, plus the new seeding method based on previous results, seems ill-conceived. The thought that a point system allows the judging of groups of ever larger size, without limit, is not defensible.

    For instance in the Ladies Short Program at 2008 Worlds there were 53 competitors. No human being can be expected to judge in a fair way such a large field of skaters and in view of the impact drift in judging standard can have on competition results, it is proposed to go back to the use of qualifying rounds, except that the top ten ranked competitors and the winners of the Senior Grand Prix events will automatically qualify for the final round and will not be required to skate in the qualifying rounds.

  13. #13
    Gadfly and Bon Vivant Mafke's Avatar
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    I just started individual threads for the first three items and if no one stops me or does it first will get around to threads for the others. I suggest we take the discussion there (including reposting points there that we feel strongly about)

    just a suggestion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by visaliakid View Post
    Does anyone else find it ironic that the list of proposals (in particular,the first two proposals relating to secret judging being abolished) comes from a group of anonymous coaches? They are not afraid to make the proposals, but apparently feel the need to not make their identity public?

    I think this speaks volumes! I am sure the formal proposals to the ISU properly identifies those who contributed to them. So why are their names not being published?
    The coaches involve are not anonymous. Ten of the coaches involved with the project signed the cover letter that accompanied the proposals. Everyone in the ISU who needs to, knows who submitted them, and anyone in the ISU who wants to find out can find out. So it is no big secret.

    The speculation that mostly American coaches were involved is incorrect. It involved coaches from North America and Europe and involved coaches who work with both elite and non-elite skaters. I don't have an exact count, but there were probably more European coaches involved than North American, but it is pretty even.

    The proposals submitted through normal channels at the ISU do NOT state who wrote them. They only say if a proposal comes from the TC or a country. When published by the ISU, proposals do not say who on the TC or at the federations wrote the text.

    It was MY choice to follow the same practice with these proposals and to remove the names and e-mail addresses of the coaches from the cover letter, and simply say they come from a committee of coaches.

  15. #15
    Gadfly and Bon Vivant Mafke's Avatar
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    Could a mod please change the title of this thread please?

    Proposal # 1 Abolish secret judging

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