Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 33

Thread: Coaches' proposals 4-9: Spins and steps

  1. #1
    Gadfly and Bon Vivant Mafke's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    1,401

    Coaches' proposals 4-9: Spins and steps

    For the past six months a group of international coaches have been developing a set of proposals for the improvement of the International Judging System (IJS). These proposals were recently submitted to the ISU Singles and Pairs Technical Committee.
    4. Both in the short and free program one sequence of the competitor’s choice to be required.

    The ladies may execute either step or spiral sequences, or a sequence that is a mixture of both steps and spiral positions. The men shall execute a step sequence in each program which can also include spirals and spread eagles ( see related item 9).

    From now on, I'll have something about what the proposal is in the header.
    Last edited by Mathman; 05-27-2008 at 12:32 PM.

  2. #2
    Gadfly and Bon Vivant Mafke's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    1,401

    Proposal # 5 Fewer spins in LP

    5. Reduce the number of spins to be executed in the free program.

    In the free program, three spins must be executed. One must be a spin combination with change of foot and change of position, one a flying spin and one a spin with only one position. If two spins with only one position are executed they must be in different basic positions.

  3. #3
    Gadfly and Bon Vivant Mafke's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    1,401

    Proposal # 6 No more features

    6. Abolish the use of "features" in spins and sequences, and use the Grade of Execution to reward added value in these elements.

    It is proposed to abolish the use of "features" in spins and sequences, and assign only basic values for each element.

    The elimination of "features" would have the following effects:

    a) stimulate the creativity of the skaters

    b) place emphasis on the basic qualities of the elements (speed, balance, beauty of positions, etc.) instead of simply achieving levels of difficulty at the expense of quality of the elements

    c) reduce the risks of "personal interpretation" by the various Technical Panels in establishing the level of the elements

    It will be the duty and the responsibility of the judges to establish with their GoE marks the extra value added by the skaters through their ability and creativity, such as: number of revolutions above the minimum required, new and original positions, speed, quality of a spin in general; use of complex turns, changes of skating or rotational direction in steps, speed, depth of the edges, extension of the free leg, etc.

  4. #4
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    1,713
    But most ladies will elect to do a spiral sequence since i has a higher base value anyway. This proposal doesn't address weak positions and poor edge controls at all.

  5. #5
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    433
    This is already on the ISU agenda for changes to be made in 2009, but I think the ISU's proposal is better than the coaches: Require only a spiral sequence OR step sequence in each program, but alternate them every other year (i.e., step in LP, spiral in SP for one year, then step in SP, spiral in LP for the next year)

  6. #6
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    New York City
    Posts
    20,185
    Whatever. Spirals have never gotten to me other than being well done and I place them in the same category of well executed spread eageles and ina bauers. They are pretty and can be well integrated into a routine, and not hanging out there as a special trick.

    Joe

  7. #7
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    New York City
    Posts
    20,185
    Quote Originally Posted by Mafke View Post
    6. Abolish the use of "features" in spins and sequences, and use the Grade of Execution to reward added value in these elements.

    It is proposed to abolish the use of "features" in spins and sequences, and assign only basic values for each element.

    The elimination of "features" would have the following effects:

    a) stimulate the creativity of the skaters

    b) place emphasis on the basic qualities of the elements (speed, balance, beauty of positions, etc.) instead of simply achieving levels of difficulty at the expense of quality of the elements

    c) reduce the risks of "personal interpretation" by the various Technical Panels in establishing the level of the elements

    It will be the duty and the responsibility of the judges to establish with their GoE marks the extra value added by the skaters through their ability and creativity, such as: number of revolutions above the minimum required, new and original positions, speed, quality of a spin in general; use of complex turns, changes of skating or rotational direction in steps, speed, depth of the edges, extension of the free leg, etc.
    Mafke - I'm not sure what 'features' are. Can you give an example?

    How much more can the skater show their creative posiitions since their bodies have now been contorted every which way.

    Why not insist on one combo spin of a basic camel (6 turns) to a sitspin (6 spins and all the way down) rise into a L spin by cross foot spin. It's a beautiful move which has been done since way back. It's easy to judge and not distracting like the contortionist spins. They can do those combo spins after proving they can do the basic combo spin.

    Joe

  8. #8
    The Zamboni Rocks!!! sillylionlove's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    East of the Pacific, West of the Atlantic, South of Canada and North of Mexico
    Posts
    1,896
    I am for anything that makes each skaters spiral sequence look different then each other. Right now they are all cookie cutters of each other.

  9. #9
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    820
    Quote Originally Posted by vlaurend View Post
    This is already on the ISU agenda for changes to be made in 2009.
    Why the wait?

  10. #10
    Gadfly and Bon Vivant Mafke's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    1,401
    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    Mafke - I'm not sure what 'features' are. Can you give an example?
    Not really, this isn't my proposal but the coaches'.
    I do notice skaters talking about features in interviews. They're what make the difference between level one and level two etc.

  11. #11
    Trixie Schuba's biggest fan! blue dog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    San Diego, CA
    Posts
    2,100
    I think what coaches are trying to address are the spiral sequences that are no longer in line with the music, and I totally agree. I don't care how high Sasha can lift her leg--if it is in line with the music.

  12. #12
    Trixie Schuba's biggest fan! blue dog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    San Diego, CA
    Posts
    2,100
    And also what makes the difference between level four feature 1 and level four feature two, etc. There was a post here once that described the difference between an L4F3 straightline sequence and an L4F4 straightline sequence--and the description made the L4F4 (more difficult) sound ugly. It involved moving the arms and the feet as one made a mini-serpentine down the rink.

  13. #13
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Posts
    3,962
    What are features?

    Look at the definitions for the levels of non-jump elements. Here's the latest version:
    http://www.usfigureskating.org/conte...9-S-levels.pdf

    For spiral sequences, there is a list of 6 different "features" that can be used to raise the level of the sequence. If the skater does 2 of those things, the spiral sequence will be called level 2; if she does 3 of them, it will be level 3; and if she does 4, it will be level 4.

    (With some additional caveats -- e.g., both feet, both edges, forward and backward is no longer a feature but is listed as mandatory for level 3 or 4; positions/edges that are held for less than 3 seconds don't count as features.)

    There are similar lists of features for other kinds of elements.

    This has been the way that these elements have worked ever since the new system was introduced. There have been some small and/or significant changes in the details every year, though.

  14. #14
    Gadfly and Bon Vivant Mafke's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    1,401

    Proposal # 7 Defining spins

    7. Definitions of Spin positions

    Upright spin

    In the upright spin, the longest axis of the skater’s torso is vertical and coincides with the axis of rotation. The skating leg may be bent at the knee and the hip, so long as the axis of the torso remains in essentially a vertical position.

    A position where the torso is inclined forward, but the skating leg is essentially straight (angle at the knee of the skating leg more than 135 degrees) shall also be considered an upright position.

    Other examples of variation of the upright spin include the cross-foot spin, layback spin, side-leaning spin, Biellmann position and "inverted-V" spin (knees straight, skater’s head near foot level).

    a) The cross foot spin must be commenced spinning either forward or backward from a one foot flat spin with the free foot being placed on the ice as soon as possible after a minimum number of rotations necessary on one foot. The free foot can be crossed either in front or behind provided both skates are on the ice, toe to toe. If crossed in front, the free foot may be placed on ice at a 90 degree angle to the first foot.

    b) In the layback or sideways leaning spin and in the Biellmann spin any position is permitted as long as the layback or sideways leaning position is maintained for at least eight revolutions without rising to an upright position. [Note: When an upright spin is required, if the angle is less than 135 degrees, the spin will be called no value.]

    Sit spin

    The skater is in a sitting position. The skater’s torso may be vertical or leaning forward or sideways. The skating leg should be bent at the knee at no more than a 90 degree angle.

    Judges shall reduce the GoE for sit positions where the angle is more than 90 degrees (a weak sitting position). When the angle is greater than 135 degrees the position shall be considered an upright position.

    Note: When a sit spin is required, if the angle is greater than 135 degrees, the spin will be called no value.

    Camel spin

    The competitor’s torso must be in a horizontal, or nearly horizontal position, with the free leg held as high as the hip joint of the free leg, or higher. The position of the free leg is otherwise free. Variations of the position are permitted, including holding the free leg at any point, including the skate blade.

    The skater’s torso may be in an arched position so long as the axis of symmetry of the lower back and pelvis is nearly horizontal.

    Judges shall reduce the GoE for poor positions of the torso or free leg, or if the free leg is not held as high as the hip joint of the free leg. Judges shall increase the GoE for superior positions of the torso and/or free leg.

    Intermediate Position

    This position is an unnecessary fiction that serves no useful purpose and is unnecessary with the above definitions.
    Last edited by Mafke; 05-23-2008 at 03:04 PM. Reason: completion

  15. #15
    Gadfly and Bon Vivant Mafke's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    1,401

    Proposal # 8 Spin base values

    8. Base values of spins

    Note: Minimum rotations are part of the well balanced program rules, and vary from one event to another.

    a) Spins with no change of foot and no change of basic position.

    * Upright Spin Base value 1.5
    * Cross foot spin, free foot crossed in front Base value 2.5
    * Cross foot spin, free foot crossed behind Base value 3.2
    * Layback or sideways leaning spin Base value 3.2
    * Biellmann spin Base value 4.0
    * Sit Spin Base Value 3.0
    * Camel spin Base value 3.5

    Any edge permitted. Variations of positions of the head, arms and free leg, as well as fluctuations of speed are permitted.

    b) Spins with flying entry and with no change of foot and no change of basic position.

    * Flying sit spin Base Value 5.0
    * Flying sit spin changing the foot of landing Base Value 5.5
    * Flying Camel spin Base Value 4.5

    Any type of flying spin is permitted. The chosen position must be maintained in the air. Revolutions in the landing position may be different from the flying position. No previous rotation on the ice before the take off is permitted.

    c) Spins with change of foot without change of position.

    * Upright Spin Base Value 2.8
    * Layback Spin Base Value 3.8
    * Sit Spin Base Value 4.0
    * Camel spin Base Value 4.5

    The spin must consist of only one change of foot, which may be executed either in the form of a step over or a jump. Variations of the positions of the head, arm or leg, as well as fluctuations of speed are permitted.

    d) Spin combination with no change of foot and two changes of position. Base Value 4.5

    The spin combination must include at least two basic positions or their variations. A minimum of two revolutions in each position is required. Variations of the positions of the head, arm or leg, as well as fluctuations of speed are permitted.

    e) Spin combination with change of foot and three changes of position. Base Value 5.5

    The spin combination must consist of one change of foot and must include all three basic positions or their variations. The change of foot and change of position may be made either at the same time or separately. The change of foot may be executed in the form of a step over or a jump. A minimum of two revolutions in each position is required. Variations of the positions of the head, arm or leg, as well as fluctuations of speed are permitted.

    f) For items c) through e) add 0.5 to the Base Value if the spin is begun with a flying entry.

    g) Change of edge during the spin.

    Add 0.5 points to the Base Value of any spin performed with a change of edge. Only one spin with a change of edge is permitted in a program.

    The recent trend to "change edge" during the spin should be discouraged. The change of edge in the spin is not one of technical quality of skating. The quality of a spin should be its speed, centering and the position or the positions during the spin.

Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •