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Thread: Summer Questions - Ladies

  1. #46
    ApacheApache
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    Re: Summer Questions - Ladies


    <blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr> engrsktr: Will Michelle absolutely need a 3/3? Probably not - but we've seen what happens when she doesn't have one and someone else does.... on a couple occasions... so, I guess it's up to the competition.
    While she may not NEED one to win nationals and worlds, I for one would really like to see her go out and do one regardless (on a consistent basis throughout the season). I simply can't understand why she hasn't had one consistently up to this point.
    A lot of people here a GS say it's probably because she's concerned about injury. But I doubt that's what it is. I think we can all agree that her fitness level is outstanding, especially with the strength training and all. And her technique is good enough (for years!) where she should be able to train a 3/3 without fear of injury (of course freak injuries are always possible - but a skater can't think of these things or else she would never even step onto the ice; most injuries come from bad technique and training and I don't think anyone will disagree when I say that michelle has neither of those). So I wonder why she hasn't added on to her permanent repertoire. Sure she's done them before, but it's not something you expect from her. She always says she likes to compete, and she likes to challenge herself... I think this would be the biggest challenge for her - to go out and do the jumps like she means business... .go out with some aggressiveness and do the 3/3 even if it's completely unnecessary for a win...it certainly doesn't mean she's being less artistic
    many may say "but this could jeopardize her program if she misses" ... it's not all about the medals is it? She's got enough of those to last a lifetime.
    I say the biggest challenge is being great when you only need to be good.
    So I guess I would have more respect for her technical skating if she would add this 3/3... I mean she's been doing every triple since she was around 14.... a little change can be good...
    [/quote]

    Engrsktr, I think some of the points you have stated to support your assertion that she should try 3/3s are actually points that explain why she hasn't tried them more often.

    Have you ever thought the reason why she has stayed so incredibly heathly and injury-free is precisely because she hasn't risked injuring her body by doing too many 3/3s? In the past years, if she hardly needed a 3/3 in every competition to win, why would she or any athlete in his/her right mind risk losing by trying something harder? In the past, she DID want to win competitions (absolutely nothing wrong with that kind of mentality), and it would make sense for her to be conservative. Conservative by Michelle's standards, but not others, I must stress. It might start to get corny from me but how many ladies have consistently produced 6-7 triples every year? Since the answer is none or rather just a few, it's not easy. Ok, let's talk about the last 2 seasons, how many have produced 6-7 triples when just about everyone says it's "conservtive" (blame it on Michelle)? Again only a few. So, what does it tell us? It's technically difficult to even put out a 6T program. What's more baffling to me is when others produce a 6 or 7 triple program, people go crazy like it's some sort of a monumental task completed. And when Michelle does it, people question why she's so conservative. The irony of sports. :lol:

    Only recently, Michelle has started to stop thinking of winning the medals, good for her. She has said she loves to challenge herself. Have you ever thought "challenge" to her is to be able to produce at least a 6 clean program with great artistry at an "old age"? That to me is a monumental task itself and it's definitely a challenge. For God's sake, it already is for all the skaters out there, and they want to talk about 3/3s and quads?

    Speaking as a huge Michelle fan, I definitely would love to see her attempt 3/3s not just the 3t/3t. I really wish to see that. However, I woudn't be disappointed if she completely stopped doing it. Engsktr, please don't get me wrong, I don't want to sound like a Michelle cop here, a term I so often see on other forums.:lol: I just feel compelled to share my views and rebut any poster whom I strongly disagree with. :D

  2. #47
    Joesitz
    Guest

    Re: Summer Questions - Ladies


    I think the main reason why Sarah skated last season was to please Robin. I really don't think she wanted to skate and now that it is over she is free to be hersefl.

    Joe

  3. #48
    nymkfan51
    Guest

    Re: Summer Questions - Ladies


    Re: Tara

    I agree that she probably didn't know for sure how badly she was injuring herself. It's hard to imagine that her parents would let her go on if they knew the extent of her hip problem.


    Re: Sarah

    I'm a bit more skeptical about her. I think the reason she came back to compete is probably a combination of alot of things already mentioned here ... plus ... she very much liked the attention and praise she got for being the first OGM to come back and compete since Witt. I was actually surprised how badly prepared at Worlds she was. I thought at Nationals she had shown a good deal of improvement from those two comps she did in December. I fully expected her to train really hard and come to Worlds ready to rock and roll.
    I remember an article 2 or 3 weeks before Worlds where Robin made some comments about Sarah not being really ready and I thought she was just blowing smoke. My thought now is that even she felt Sarah would have been farther along with her training then. It seems that somewhere between Nats and Worlds, Sarah just couldn't get interested enough.

  4. #49
    Lucy25
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    Re: Summer Questions - Ladies


    <blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I also think that the fuss she and/or her team made about her love of skating put on the pressure to return. Does "I'll Never Say Goodbye" ring a bell?[/quote]

    I am not sure Team Sarah knew all that an OGM would bring to her, and I think she really planned on fully training for a full competitve season last fall. Sarah repeatedly said that she has so much more to give to skating, so why would she retire? I think their ignorance as to what would happen to Sarah's life after the Olympics really was genuine, but it backfired, and Sarah was left with all her "I love skating and competing" comments and the endless articles about her life being in balance. I almost wonder if she felt backed into a corner to compete. I guess we'll never know, unless she writes an autobiography some day. I did appreciate her honesty after Worlds when she said that this past season was awful, despite her politically correct statements about not caring too much about where she placed this year. I think those comments were simply scripted and she was saying what she was "supposed" to say.

  5. #50
    Lucy25
    Guest

    Re: Summer Questions - Ladies


    Re: Tara -
    I could have sworn I read that Tara and her parents knew that she had a pretty bad injury. Hasn't that been Tara's latest story - that the pain started while training for the Olympics? I believe her mother said that there was no way for her to stop Tara because she was so determined. Pretty recently I remember reading that Tara said knew right away that she'd never make it the next four years because of her hip, and that's why she turned pro so quickly. As I said, this is the latest story, there have been many...

  6. #51
    ladybug
    Guest

    Re: Summer Questions - Ladies



    I expected Sarah to come back last season and really kick some butt. Up until the Olympics, she had been improving every year and that is what I expected this last season.

    I think Sarah wanted to quiet all those people who said her Olympic Gold was just a fluke. She probably felt that being an Oly champ would give her a slight edge but once she achieved her goal, the spark and hunger was gone. Her desire to live for skating was gone and she was busy having fun and enjoying the perks of Oly gold. Certainly not a bad thing, she had worked darn hard to achieve her dream.

    I think we will see Sarah in a few fluff competitions but her days of serious competing are over for her. She probably found a new love, education and no matter what she does, no one can take that gold metal away from her.

  7. #52
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    Re: Sarah


    I think general US FS fan and media just put too much expectation on Sarah after her SLC Gold.

    As some porter pointed before. She was a medal contender into the SLC but never a Gold medal contender. Her OGM was a supprise even to team Sarah.

    Her skating technique, especially the jump technique, has always been flawed. Except SLC, she was doing well in each worlds she was in, however she was never placed higher than 4th place in either SP or LP in any worlds. It was the combined results that gave her Bonz at 2001 world. IIRC, Angela placed higher than her in SP, but messedup in LP; and Maria placed higher than her in LP but messed up in QR.

    <blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>She probably felt that being an Oly champ would give her a slight edge ...[/quote]
    I think that's exactly what team Sarah was thinking going into the Nats and Worlds. There was complaining at 2002's Nats or SLC SP (I don't remember which one exactly?) for lower mark she got from team Sarah because they think her 3rd place at 2001 should've given her some edges over other skaters. And there was complaining about the lower mark at SP in 2003 worlds too.


  8. #53
    LAVENDER
    Guest

    Re: Sarah


    It was at the Olympics. Sarah must not see the problems in her technique. She actually thought that she deserved 5.8/5.9. That's a big problem that caught up with her at Worlds this year. I do think she expected much better scores. Personally I thought that she skated a better short at Worlds this year but got lower scores than at the Olympics.

  9. #54
    Joesitz
    Guest

    Re: Sarah


    mzheng - Yup, the media goes bananas over the winner of the Olys. Sarah got all those alocades! But the US fans were still carrying on about her so-called underrotated jumps. I don't think she was the favorite among US fans even after the win (probably less after the win). I'm not a fan of SH but I do believe her win was correct.

    Joe

  10. #55
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    Re: Sarah


    Joesitz - She won the LP fair and square. However, IMO, two wrongs made her over all win. And at 2001 two faults made her blonz. Got to say skating God really took care her.

  11. #56
    Kabooke
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    Re: Sarah


    Well, as she keeps saying, no one can take away her title and it seems that's all she'll ever have. It all seems fine by her.

  12. #57
    LAVENDER
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    Re: Sarah


    What can she do but accept that she's lucky. I don't think she was fine with just the Olympic win. I mean it's been good and bad the way she talked about it. She said that she's not happy about the fact that she can't always skate like she did at the Olympics. She also stated how it's not easy being the Olympic champ so I would say she seems torn over it. I think she wouldn't have been torn if she had a Nat or World title.

  13. #58
    ladybug
    Guest

    Re: Sarah



    After Sarah won Skate Canada over Irina and Michelle she seemed to go into a slump until the Olympic Free Skate.

    She didn't do as well at Nationals or at the GPF. Maybe she can't handle the pressure of "the one being chased" rather than "the chaser".

    Too bad, I would have loved to see her improve each year and hang in for another two years. Just goes to prove just how tough Michelle and Irina really are. :D

  14. #59
    mpal2
    Guest

    Re: Sarah


    Irina seemed to be in a slump after her win at Worlds. She at least was starting to pull out of it last season until the whole problem with her mother's illness. It would have been interesting to see if she could pull it all together by DC but we'll never know now.

  15. #60
    rgirl181
    Guest

    Re: Wrap-Up on Tara and Her Hip


    Berthes Ghost, Joe, Lavender, Lucy, Mzheng, nymkfan, and anyone I missed, thanks for answering my questions about Tara and her hip. Below I've tried to summarize my interpretation of what people said and then I've tried to respond with a long, insufferable Rgirl post. But, please, everyone, correct me if I misrepresent anything you said.

    Berthes Ghost--I thought you explained your feelings very well, and yes, as Joe was saying, of course I understand that all this is just conjecture. Tell me if I'm interpreting what you said correctly, but you seemed to be saying that while you don't think Tara knew the extent of the damage she was doing to her hip by practicing the 3lp/3lp so much, that she still has a certain amount of responsibility for the outcome. However, it seems you also feel that Tara's parents and coach should have been more aware of the potential damage she was doing to herself and perhaps had too much of an imbalance in favor of winning the OGM vs. looking out for the best interests of Tara's health. All that coupled with apparently misdiagnoses from the doctors created a kind of "soup" of conflicting interests, Tara's highly driven personality, and lack of proper medical information that even in hindsight makes it difficult to impossible to say with any certainty that any one party is to blame for what happened. The bottom line is it seem like there are a lot of gray areas that are made even grayer because of changing stories from Tara, her parents (mainly Pat), agents, etc. Please correct any misinterpretations I might have of what you said. I'm just trying to see if what I got from your post is accurate.

    Joe--You wisely reminded us that none of us really knows what happened and that anything we say is all conjecture unless we have direct quotes from Tara. Good advice You go on to say that Tara was driven to win and that this would please her mother no end. Between the lines, I get the feeling that perhaps you feel there was a double motivation: one, for Tara to win for herself and two, to win for her mother. Yes? Again, correct me if I'm misinterpreting. You also said that she did not try to imitate Michelle but rather skated in her own style. You then say that at some point she must have known the hip was in bad shape and that you are almost convinced she had to decide before the Olys whether or not to have surgery, but that whether the surgeons advised her correctly or not, we just don't know. Another point you made is that after the Olys, her public wish was to be with her parents, so she gave up her eligible status, but it seems somewhat contradictory that she went traveling with SOI for six months out of the year.

    Lavendar--<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>She didn't believe in stretching. Who in the world told her that she didn't need those type of warming up excercises?[/quote] I had not heard or read that before. I'm not doubting you did, I'm just wondering where you heard/read it.

    Mzheng--If I am summarizing what you said correctly, you said that even if her parents and coach didn't know the severity of her injury prior to the Olympics, her agent either knew or suspected it because you heard him say in an interview that because of Tara's hip injury winning the OGM was either now or never. You also said you thought that meant Tara was willing to take the risk with her hip long before Nagano, but that because Tara was so young, with all the impulsivity that goes with it, you don't blame her but do believe her parents and coach are at fault for allowing her to practice the 3lp/3lp so much. You also seemed to express some mixed feelings because on the one hand Tara was warning young skaters about the dangers of what she did and for them not to repeat her mistakes, but on the other hand, Tara said she had no regrets. Another thing that seemed to cause you to feel ambivalent about this issue is that in an interview shortly before SLC Tara said something about if she had stayed eligible she might have been able to win another OGM, but that she wanted to give other skaters a chance. But now we know that she knew how serious her hip was when she made the blunt "I could still win the OGM in SLC" statement, which is very contradictory. You end by saying, "You just can't take what she says seriously."

    nymkfan--You said you felt Tara probably didn't know for sure how badly she was injuring herself and that it is hard to imagine that her parents would let her go on if they knew the extent of her hip problem.

    Lucy--Whenever I see your name and forum title I want to sing "Lucy on the ice with diamonds!":D Sorry, couldn't resist. Anyway, you seem to echo a lot of what Mzheng said in that there have been a lot of different stories as to who knew who injured Tara was when; ie, her parents knew she had a bad injury but Tara was so determined there was no stopping her; Tara said the reason she turned pro so quickly was because of her hip; and that these were just two examples of many stories.

    Again, all of you, please correct me if anything I have summarized is wrong.

    A bunch of long boring points from my POV: Having worked with a lot of athletes who competed while they were injured and also having gone through it myself as a dancer (thought I wasn't competing in the technical sense, I was competing to keep my job), there are a lot of things I see in Tara's situation that I saw time and again with injured athletes and things I can relate to myself. To emphasize Joe's point, of course this is all conjecture on my part.

    IMO, I think Tara was in the common "push me-pull you" situation for athletes or anyone who makes their living from performing physical feats beyond the norm. When I was in grad school, my exercise physiology professor used to remind us periodically that elite athletes did not train to be healthy; they trained to push the limits of human physical ability. Of course athletes need to be healthy to be able to push themselves, but that being an elite athlete in any discipline that requires extreme physical activity is going to put that athlete in a position where the goals of their activity and good health are in conflict. The idea is for athletes and their coaches to try to push the athlete as far as possible toward their physical goals without pushing so hard that they cause serious injury.

    The point that almost everyone made is that the stories we get from Tara keep changing and are often contradictory. This too is something that I found very common with athletes who were injured, especially those with a chronic injury. As far as my experience and research go, the reasons for changing and contradictory stories seem for fall into a few basic categories: One is that the athlete has trained for years to use "mind over matter" and to push themselves beyond what they think they can do. One gets a physiologic "high" from doing this (won't go into the physiology but anyone who is athletic will recognize the concept) and after training for 10 or however many years to "push, push, push," both psychologically and physiologically, it's very hard to turn it off. Athletes who have to stop training because of an injury almost always become clinically depressed, with research results showing that when training stops physiologic things like endorphin levels drop, changes in brain neurochemistry occurs, and all kinds of other hormonal and neurochemical changes occur. It's a fair to say that the athlete goes through physical withdrawal when training stops abruptly, which is why when an athlete is injured to where s/he cannot train normally, the trainer or whatever sports medicine specialist is in charge tries to keep the athlete working out with every other part of the body that is not injured. You try to get the athlete to do the most with the least harm.

    My point with all this is that prior to the Olympics I think Tara was like most athletes in similar situations in that the "high" she got from pushing herself to perfect the 3lp/3lp plus working on all the other elements of her skating with the goal of what is considered, rightly or wrongly, the most important medal in skating at stake, was in conflict with the pain she was feeling in her hip. What I've seen as a big problem with injured elite athletes, all of whom in my experience are highly self-motivated, driven, and determined, is to get them to even admit that they have pain. It's the opposte of malingering, where people pretend they're sick or injured when in fact they're not. Although there is no official antonym for malingering, which I think shows how unrecognized it is, we called it <em>bonlingering</em> or <em>bonalingering</em> since <em>bon</em> and <em>bona</em> are French and Latin for "good." We would have used "well" but in French and Spanish "well" is <em>puits</em> and <em>pozo</em> respectively, and <em>pozolingering</em> sounded like Bozo the Clown was involved, lol.

    But I digress (don't I always); the point is that because the driven mindset athletes have naturally is part of what gets them to the elite level and is also emphasized even more by training, it's incredibly difficult to get such an athlete to hold back. In my experience, to get an injured elite athlete to hold back, it usually takes a physician with a strong personality and reputation to show him/her an x-ray or some kind of test and say, "See this? This means your [whatever] is going to be permanently damaged if you keep training the way you are. You may make it through the Olympics and may even win a medal, but you'll have severe chronic problems for the rest of your life if you do." The things is, even the best physicians are rarely this sure unless it's a traumatic injury such as a full tear of a critical tendon or ligament. In '98, Elvis Stojko skated with an injured groin muscle. He had to know he was in danger of tearing it if he competed in the Olympics, but he did and it did tear and it took him about two to three years to recover. I think if Tara had recovered from her hip injury the way Elvis did, people probably would have little interest in it.

    For Tara, from what I understand, prior to the Olympics the damage to her hip did not show up on x-rays and although I don't know if they did more sophisticated tests such as Computerized Tomography (CT) scans or Magnetic Resonance Imaging (MRI) at that time, my feeling from what I've read is that such tests were not done until a couple of years after the Olympics when the pain was so severe Tara was having difficulty walking. There is a general perception that if an elite athlete is injured, especially one going to the Olympics, that they have a team of the best sports medicine specialists available to them all the time. Sadly, this is not the case as I believe the situation with Yagudin's hip has demonstrated. Thus it's my belief--emphasis on belief--that Tara probably minimized what she said about the pain in her hip prior to the Olympics because she was afraid a physician would tell her to stop training. In other words, she was <em>bonlingering</em>.

    Another thing I found to be very common in the athletes I worked with was the mindset of, "I've had pain and trained through it before and was fine in the end. Why should this be any different?" Also, at 14-15 years old, Tara was at an age, which lasts for many years, where she felt indestructible. To me, this isn't unique to Tara; it's common among almost all elite athletes. It's part of the psychology that makes them elite. My guess is that Tara probably felt something like the following: <em>My hip hurts, but it doesn't hurt all the time and it's well enough for me to skate my full program with all the jumps. If I can just get through the Olympics then I can rest and my hip will be fine. After all, I've been injured before and I've always gotten better once I got some rest. Winning the Olympic gold medal is what I've been working for my whole life. I can't give it up now. My parents have sacrificed so much for me to get here. I just have to put up with some pain for a while and then rest it later.</em>

    It's classic Scarlett O'Hara, "I'll think about it tomorrow," but it's oh so common in my experience. As for the responsibility of the athlete in caring for the injury and "doing the right thing," having been on the side where you're part of the team that is supposed to "know" what's best for the athlete, one thing I do know is that nobody really knows anything when it comes to athletic injuries that do not show up clearly on tests. Some injuries show up clearly on tests and others just don't. Even at severe stages, injuries to some parts of the body don't show up at all. Add to that the fact that you can show the same test, such as an x-ray, to 10 different physicians and get 10 different opinions ranging from "this looks perfectly normal" to "this needs surgery immediately." Then you get the 10 different opinions on what kind of surgery is needed.

    From what I've read about Tara's hip, it sounds to me as if prior to the Olympics, the physicians she saw told her she was fine. After about two years of being in constant pain with SOI, it seems she was in a situation of multiple misdiagnoses for about a year. After about three years, when her hip got bad enough that the damage was clear on x-ray, CT, or MRI, it seems there was disagreement on the kind of surgery she needed. So, IMO, Tara was getting a lot of conflicting information from physicians that often did not reflect how her hip felt, ie, lots of pain but physicians telling her they didn't see any damage on her tests. Then more pain and physicians agreeing she needed surgery but disagreeing on what kind. Thus when asked by the media about the status of her hip, what does Tara say? "My hip hurts so bad I can hardly stand it but the doctors tell me there's nothing wrong." Or, "The pain in my hip is much worse and the doctors say I need surgery but they disagree on what kind of surgery to do." In terms of PR, that's not going to go over well, plus athletes have a lot invested in being in phenomenal shape. It's incredibly difficult for many injured elite athletes to say, "Something's very wrong with my body but nobody knows what it is." It sounds easy to say, but when so much of your identity is based on the incredible shape your body is in and the amazing athletic actitivies you can do, I can see how easy it would be for Tara to say, "Sure, I could win a medal in SLC," even whilee her hip is causing blinding pain.

    Of course I dont know squat about Tara's mindset. I'm basing this on the things I've heard from and experienced with other elite athletes. The possibility of not being able to do the thing you love so much it's virtually your whole life when you're still a teenager and you're supposedly indestructible is very, very hard for an athlete to accept. "Life without skating" are probably the worst words an elite skater can hear. On good days when her hip doesn't hurt so bad, I can imagine Tara thinking, "Hey, this will get better!" and if she's being interviewed that day, that's what the interviewer gets: "My hip feels great! I could compete at the Olympics again." On bad days when she can hardly walk, I imagine Tara must be either very depressed or has developed coping skills to keep a positive attitude. If interviewed during the bad times, I think that's when Tara gave answers that I think were probably somewhat exaggerated, such as, "I trained the 3lp/3lp much too hard, 50 times a day, and it ruined my hip. I don't want this to happen to other skaters." I don't think Tara actually counted and actually did 50 3lp/3lps every day, althoughI'm sure on some days she did close to that and maybe once in a while she did to 50 just to push herself. But I think people have taken that statement a little too much to heart. IMO, "I did 50 3lp/3lps a day" was an expression like, "I trained till I dropped every day" and was meant to emphasize that she let the situation get out of control.

    As for Tara's statement that she has no regrets, I think Tara is savvy enough with the media to know they want a "happy" ending to the interview and plus I think Tara herself probably believes in the power of positive thinking. Thus I think it's just not Tara's style, or very few skaters style, to say, "Yes, I regret that I trained so hard trying to be the best skater in the world that I ruined my hip. I'd give my Olympic gold medal back in a second if my hip was well again." Also, sometimes the journalist will write a "happy ending" quote themselves regardless of what the athletes says. Believe me, I've seen it happen.

    Regarding Tara turning pro, what I recall reading and hearing her say is that she was concerned that her parents were separated because she had to train in Detroit and have her mother with her while her father had to live and work in Texas (I think--correct me if my geography is wrong). I don't recall it being that Tara wanted their whole family to be together 365 days a year. I can very easily relate to a 15-year-old wanting to see her mother and father living together again, especially if she sensed tension in the marriage and was afraid of being the cause of it. I think it was a given that she would start touring six months out of the year, but at least her parents would be back together and Tara would be with them when she was not on tour. And I'm sure Tara's parents wanted her to be happy and being happy for Tara, at least from the quotes I've read, is to keep skating.

    My apologies for another obnoxiously long post, but having had experience with injured elite athletes in situations similar to Tara and of course my own experiences being injured, I wanted to give my opinions based on those experiences. Rgirl, give her opinions?! How unusual!:rollin: :rollin: Of course my opinions could be completely <strong>wrong</strong>, but there they are for people to judge. Also, I'm not trying to start the "Crusades Over Tara's Hip" thread:lol: I can completely understand people who say about Tara and her hip situation, "There are too many contradictions. Things just don't add up. I'm not sure I can believe anything Tara says about her hip." These people could very well be right. This is just my point of view and as I've said before, I know absolutely nothing about the true nature of Tara's situation or her mindset. One thing I do know is that this is way past time to be OVER, so I'll spare anybody reading this anymore torture and I myself will watch George Carlin on HBO
    Rgirl
    PS I will add that I wish Tara all the best. She's been through a lot of intense chronic pain and apparently still is and that's hell for anybody.

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