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Thread: Joannie Rochette

  1. #1
    Custom Title fumie_fumie's Avatar
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    Joannie Rochette

    I love Mathman's idea.

    So What does Joannie Rochette have to do to take the final step onto the podium?

    She is facing even steeper competition next year with all the strong US ladies moving up to the senior field.

    Honest assessment of her status, training will be appreciated.

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    Look at the TES vs PCS scores from the Worlds SP and FS and you can see what is holding Joannie back:

    36.34 27.94 7.07 6.64 7.07 6.96 7.18 KOSTNER
    35.22 28.88 7.43 6.89 7.36 7.21 7.21 ASADA
    34.83 26.27 6.68 6.21 6.64 6.68 6.64 NAKANO
    34.22 26.36 6.68 6.29 6.68 6.64 6.68 KORPI
    32.71 28.14 7.21 6.71 7.00 7.14 7.11 KIM
    32.99 26.54 6.68 6.25 6.71 6.75 6.79 ROCHETTE


    In the SP, Joannie was 5th of the top 6 in TES because she didn't have a 3/3 (as Kostner, Asada and Kim had) and she didn't skate clean (she stepped out of the lutz) as Nakano and Korpi did. In PCS, she was 4th. So while Kim, who was 6th in TES because she fell on her 3Z, finished ahead of Joannie overall because she had the 2nd highest PCS of the top 6. Nakano had the lowest PCS, but finished well ahead of Joannie because her TES was the 3rd highest.

    Note that these skaters who finished below Rochette in the SP had higher PCS scores:

    32.17 27.32 6.86 6.54 6.96 6.86 6.93 MEIER
    31.93 27.28 6.96 6.43 6.89 6.96 6.86 ANDO

    Meier had only a 3S as the triple jump and Ando did only a 3/2 and had problems with her flip and one of her spins, so their TES scores were held down.


    64.82 58.56 7.57 7.00 7.46 7.25 7.32 KIM
    61.89 60.57 7.75 7.29 7.61 7.57 7.64 ASADA
    61.88 58.52 7.54 7.04 7.25 7.39 7.36 KOSTNER
    56.98 59.32 7.50 7.21 7.61 7.32 7.43 NAKANO
    60.52 54.07 6.93 6.54 6.86 6.71 6.75 ROCHETTE
    56.57 55.82 6.96 6.64 7.07 7.04 7.18 MEIER

    In the FS, Rochette was 4th of the top 6 in TES, but 6th of 6 in PCS, and her PCS score was from 4.45 to 6.5 points lower than the top 4 skaters.

    So it would appear that Joannie lags behind the top medal contenders because of her PCS scores, not because of technical content. Attempting to add more difficulty is not necessarily going to help her PCS score, especially if she struggles with consistency as a result.

    To my eyes, Joannie appears more stiff and controlled than the top competitors. I don't ever recall getting the feeling that she is 'letting it all hang out'. Perhaps that is because she is somewhat shy and reserved, but on the ice her performance lacks the charisma of Nakano, Asada, Kim and Ando (at her best) and the excitement of Kostner, who commands the ice with her great speed and leggy presence.

    That being said, I don't know what Joannie can do to close the PCS gap. She is 22 and her personality is as it is, and what it will be. Perhaps her best chance is for this season, to show the judges that she can skate consistenly well at every performance without visibly struggling.

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    PCS is a problem.

    In part, it was her Free Program recycle program. However that said, Rochette has been undermark in this area. She has nice lines, and deep edges, with smooth transitions. She presents a complete program, and should be mark a bit closer to the elite skaters.

    Remember, Rochette use to have TOP PCS scores next to Sasha Cohen. But she fell a bit out of judges favor, and her PCS slipped. She just got to continue her momentum throughout the season - start to finish - to be consistent and she'll gain some judges points back.

    Also, I'm very curious what programs she'll present this season. B/C she can and has presented the best programs out of all the ladies before (Dumka SP, Hymm d'Amour FP, etc)

    Finally, Joannie was much better with her jumps this season, and is finally doing triple-triples. She just needs to keep working on it, however I do feel she'll be more successful attempting at Triple-Salchow - Triple Toe combo rather than a Triple Flip - Triple Toe since she has the best Salchow in the business. Also consistency in the SP is a must this year. She can't afford to be in 5th again and play catch up.

    Overall, yes more competition this year, but I think she can hold off the American Ladies. Her "Old School" style of skating is very refreshing and I think a World Bronze is very possible.

  4. #4
    Beliver in Sasha's Perfect Program Tinymavy15's Avatar
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    I really like Joannie, she has a very different, refreshing style. I do not get why her PCS are so low, i enjoy her skating much more than Kostner and feel that her PCS should be higher than Nakano and much higher than Kimmie. Joannie has been working very hard on her lutz and made great progress with landing almost everytime even the 2nd one in the program. She also has been trying hard with her 3/3, but has not been successful in competition. Once she starts landing it a lot in competition she should see improvements in all areas of her scores.

    Her 3/3 sequence that she does at the end of the program does not seem to be getting her the scores she deserves for it, so she might as well take it out for something easier. And keep up the well-chreographed, beautifully dresses programs!

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by TtonyV7 View Post
    PCS is a problem.

    Remember, Rochette use to have TOP PCS scores next to Sasha Cohen. But she fell a bit out of judges favor, and her PCS slipped. She just got to continue her momentum throughout the season - start to finish - to be consistent and she'll gain some judges points back.
    When did Rochette have top PCS scores next to Sasha Cohen?

    Here were the PCS scores from the Worlds FSs over the past seasons:

    Worlds 05
    66.07 Irina SLUTSKAYA
    62.12 Sasha COHEN
    59.36 Michelle KWAN
    58.35 Carolina KOSTNER
    58.35 Fumie SUGURI
    56.73 Shizuka ARAKAWA
    55.88 Elena SOKOLOVA
    54.62 Susanna POYKIO
    54.40 Miki ANDO
    51.88 Elena LIASHENKO
    50.23 Joannie ROCHETTE

    Olympics 06
    63.00 Shizuka ARAKAWA
    62.41 Sasha COHEN
    61.87 Irina SLUTSKAYA
    59.25 Fumie SUGURI
    56.13 Joannie ROCHETTE
    53.54 Kimmie MEISSNER

    Worlds 06
    61.35 Sasha COHEN
    60.29 Fumie SUGURI
    60.23 Kimmie MEISSNER
    57.94 Elena SOKOLOVA
    56.29 Joannie ROCHETTE
    55.15 Yukari NAKANO
    52.75 Sarah MEIER
    51.49 Emily HUGHES

    Worlds 07
    63.48 Mao ASADA
    61.64 Yu-Na KIM
    59.45 Miki ANDO
    58.77 Kimmie MEISSNER
    57.27 Carolina KOSTNER
    54.74 Yukari NAKANO
    52.98 Sarah MEIER
    52.30 Emily HUGHES
    51.65 Alissa CZISNY
    51.49 Susanna POYKIO
    50.39 Joannie ROCHETTE

    Joannie's scores have fallen off since the 2005-2006 season, and it's probably because she skated more consistently in 2004-2006 than she has since then.

    Also, I'm very curious what programs she'll present this season. B/C she can and has presented the best programs out of all the ladies before (Dumka SP, Hymm d'Amour FP, etc)
    I haven't liked any of Joannie's programs since "Firebird". Her SPs are non-descript, and the Hymne d'Amour was atrociously saccharine and was at odds with her athletic skating style. I didn't like the FS from the past two seasons, either--too overly-choreographed. I sometimes think the choreography is to some extent responsible for her low PCS scores. She doesn't relate to the music but seems concentrated on completing all those elements within the overly-intricate choreography.

    Finally, Joannie was much better with her jumps this season, and is finally doing triple-triples.
    Joannie completed one 3/3 attempt, at 4CC, but the second jump was downgraded, so it received less points than a clean 3/2. As I said in an earlier post, adding 3/3s which are completed at less than a 50% rate will do little or nothing to raise her PCS scores. This season, she had two 3/3 attempts, neither of which was successful---a 0% rate.

    She just needs to keep working on it, however I do feel she'll be more successful attempting at Triple-Salchow - Triple Toe combo rather than a Triple Flip - Triple Toe since she has the best Salchow in the business. Also consistency in the SP is a must this year. She can't afford to be in 5th again and play catch up.
    She seems content to try a 3/3 in the SP and use the 3S-3T sequence in the FS. The problem with doing 3S+3T in the SP is that if the 3T is judged underrotated, she is at a point huge disadvantage vs. ladies doing 3Z and 3F combinations, even 3/2s. As you said, Joannie can't afford to place low in the SP and try to come back in the FS, because the top ladies all generate higher PCS scores than she does.

    Overall, yes more competition this year, but I think she can hold off the American Ladies. Her "Old School" style of skating is very refreshing and I think a World Bronze is very possible.
    Caroline Zhang already made the GPF this past season, and Joannie did not. Mirai Nagasu and Caroline have spins that Joannie simply cannot match, and Rachael Flatt has a consistent 3/3 and incredible consistency in her skating (she had 3 clean FSs in a row this past season and her scores went up with each competition). "Old School" style may have a tough time unless it's backed up with technically clean, consistent skating.

  6. #6
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    Joannie IMO can score up to 70 points if she's clean. Her jumps are so strong, and her loop and salchow are probably the best among ladies. I think her relative lack of speed is holding her pcs. Also, pcs in long program is much influenced by sp performance. Considering she's not a strong sp skater, this might be the cause of her low pcs as well.

  7. #7
    Custom Title fumie_fumie's Avatar
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    My favourite Joannie's ex number..

    http://youtube.com/watch?v=nnnAPHZbw3Q

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    What I meant to say was that Rochette was capable of high PCS scores when clean:

    2006 Worlds Qualifying Rounds Results:
    1. Cohen 59.36
    2. Suguri 56.08
    3. Rochette 55.12

    Ahead of Kostner, Meier, Poykio, Nakano, etc.

    Short Program:
    1. Cohen 30.62
    2. Suguri 29.00
    3. Rochette 28.00

    2006 Skate Canada Free Program
    1. Rochette 56.24
    2. Suguri 55.68
    3. Yuna Kim 55.20

    Basically what I'm saying is that she has been rewarded in the past, and is capable of high PCS. But it's just simply a matter of Judges Preference and whether the skater is "hot" or "not" at that time.

    In her free program, she uses a T.Toe - h/lp - T.Salchow Sequence

    What I suggest was she does a T.Salchow - T.Toe Combo in the SP. Even if the T.Toe is downgraded, it's only 1 point less that a Triple Flip.

    And yes, Zhang is very good and well be quite competitive. However it helped Zhang out that she had easier competitions in the GP that allowed her to make the GPF. Rochette had the 4th best overall scores on the GP behind Mao, Kim, and Nakano.

    1. Kim 377.88
    2. Asada 357.46
    3. Nakano 342.20
    4. Rochette 338.09
    7. Zhang 309.69

    Honestly, it will be Rochette consistency that will tell the stories. True, these new crop of American Ladies will be a challenge, but I would not blow Rochette out of the water, because the judges in some ways do appreciate her "old school" style. Remember she tends to receive positive GOE's on most elements.
    Last edited by TtonyV7; 06-04-2008 at 06:29 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TtonyV7 View Post
    What I meant to say was that Rochette was capable of high PCS scores when clean:

    2006 Worlds Qualifying Rounds Results:
    1. Cohen 59.36
    2. Suguri 56.08
    3. Rochette 55.12

    Ahead of Kostner, Meier, Poykio, Nakano, etc.

    Short Program:
    1. Cohen 30.62
    2. Suguri 29.00
    3. Rochette 28.00
    But Fumie and Sasha skated in a different Q group, judged by different judges. Who is to say that Joannie would have scored that high if she had been in the Fumie/Sasha group?

    Anyway, no more QRs, and they accounted for only .25 of the total score at the time.

    Also to be considered: 2006 Worlds took place in CANADA, a fact which helped boost Joannie's PCS scores to a level they had never been before (or since).

    2006 Skate Canada Free Program
    1. Rochette 56.24
    2. Suguri 55.68
    3. Yuna Kim 55.20
    Again, the above competition took place in Canada, with its home ice advantage, and that was Yu-Na's first GP competition. If you recall, Yu-Na made it to (and won) the 2006 GPF, while Rochette did not qualify because of this FS result at 2006 TEB:

    57.28 Kim
    53.68 Meissner
    52.72 Ando
    51.36 Rochette
    51.04 Poykio



    What I suggest was she does a T.Salchow - T.Toe Combo in the SP. Even if the T.Toe is downgraded, it's only 1 point less that a Triple Flip.
    A 3S+3T is worth 8.5 if it is completed cleanly. But if the 3T is deemed UR, then the value of the combination is only 5.8, minus a penalty for the UR---leaving a score of 4.5 or less. Meanwhile, a skater who does a clean 3F+2T gets 6.8 points or more, and a clean 3Z+2T gets 7.3 points or more; that could leave Joannie 2-3 behind, just on TES. She'd be better off going for the 3F+3T rather than a 3S+3T, because if it was UR, she'd get at least 5.37 points (what she got at 4CC for 3F+3T<).

    And yes, Zhang is very good and well be quite competitive. However it helped Zhang out that she had easier competitions in the GP that allowed her to make the GPF. Rochette had the 4th best overall scores on the GP behind Mao, Kim, and Nakano.

    1. Kim 377.88
    2. Asada 357.46
    3. Nakano 342.20
    4. Rochette 338.09
    7. Zhang 309.69
    Here are the total scores---PCS scores only--- for the 6 finalists and 3 alternates:

    175.48 Mao ASADA
    174.12 Yu-Na KIM
    171.84 Kimmie MEISSNER
    166.36 Miki ANDO
    163.12 Carolina KOSTNER
    161.64 Sarah MEIER
    158.12 Yukari NAKANO
    157.28 Joannie ROCHETTE
    149.64 Caroline ZHANG

    Last year, Caroline Zhang was 14 to Joannie's 21. One would expect Joannie to score higher in PCS than Caroline.

    Honestly, it will be Rochette consistency that will tell the stories. True, these new crop of American Ladies will be a challenge, but I would not blow Rochette out of the water, because the judges in some ways do appreciate her "old school" style. Remember she tends to receive positive GOE's on most elements.
    But Joannie's problem has always been consistency. She rarely has a good SP and FS in the same event.

    The advantage that the younger ladies have is that they literally 'grew up' under the IJS. Joannie's "old school" is 6.0.
    Last edited by chuckm; 06-04-2008 at 07:50 PM.

  10. #10
    "Hold an edge and look sexy!" museksk8r's Avatar
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    I think a clean Joannie is certainly capable of winning a world medal behind Yu-Na Kim and Mao Asada, whom have really proven to be the 2 top ladies in the world in the judges' eyes. Joannie would have finished 4th ahead of Yukari Nakano at Worlds had she not popped the 3loop, which, when completed, normally earns her up to a point or more extra in GOE. It was such a shame when she popped it b/c when she does it, it's the best ladies' 3loop in the world, IMO. I do really like Carolina Kostner, but, in all reality, she certainly is not the epitome of consistency. On any given day, Joannie has just as much a shot at a World or Olympic medal as Carolina does, IMO. They can both either run hot or cold. Rochette tends to easily beat Kostner during the Grand Prix events in terms of points.

    I think Joannie's jumps are her strongest suit. In terms of quality and basic technique in the jumps, I think she is only bested by Yu-Na Kim. Yukari's tend to be under-rotated, Carolina's tend to be way out of control and labored, and Mao's tend to be marred by wrong edges, two-footings, and at times, under-rotation.

    I wish Joannie could see a spin doctor/specialist to help her show less struggle in her spinning, improve her centering and speed, and help her show more variety in positions. Also, it would really behoove her to improve upon her speed, which would give her skating the impression of more attack and confidence, like Carolina Kostner is capable of displaying.

    For one reason or another, Joannie unfortunately tends to have her worst showings of a season at the World Championships. I wish she somehow could get it in her mind to treat that event as if it were a Skate Canada Grand Prix event. She is such a well-balanced skater and it would be a real shame not to see her fulfill all of her potential to become a World and/or Olympic medalist. I know she has it in herself to do so!

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by museksk8r View Post
    I think a clean Joannie is certainly capable of winning a world medal behind Yu-Na Kim and Mao Asada, whom have really proven to be the 2 top ladies in the world in the judges' eyes. Joannie would have finished 4th ahead of Yukari Nakano at Worlds had she not popped the 3loop, which, when completed, normally earns her up to a point or more extra in GOE. It was such a shame when she popped it b/c when she does it, it's the best ladies' 3loop in the world, IMO.
    Coulda, woulda, shoulda. If Nakano hadn't underrotated the 3A and 3F, she could have jumped right over Yu-Na Kim and Carolina Kostner and won the silver medal.

    Joannie started off the FS by putting a hand down on the 3Z+2T combo, losing 1.29 points, and she had to leave out the 2L, and thus had no 3-jump combination, costing her another 1.5 points. Popping the loop cost her 4.69 points. Then she double-footed and put a hand down on her 2A sequence, losing another 1.49 points. So it wasn't just the loop that cost Joannie a medal, it was a generally less-than-stellar performance that was reflected in a PCS score 5.25 points lower than Nakano's and 4.46 points lower than Kim's. Although Nakano had underrottated two jumps, her performance was joyful and flowing, without jarring interruptions.


    I think Joannie's jumps are her strongest suit. In terms of quality and basic technique in the jumps, I think she is only bested by Yu-Na Kim. Yukari's tend to be under-rotated, Carolina's tend to be way out of control and labored, and Mao's tend to be marred by wrong edges, two-footings, and at times, under-rotation.
    Results do not bear that out. Joannie is a good jumper, but not a consistently good one. Joannie missed out on a medal at Worlds because she had problems with her 3Z in both SP (turnout on the landing) and the SP (hand down in the 3Z combo), and she popped the loop. At Skate Canada, she had problems with the 3F combo AND the 3Z in the SP, and in the FS, she singled the second jump in both sequences, (one was the 3S, supposedly her best jump). At Cup of Russia, she fell on the 3F combo in the SP and in the FS, turned out of the second jump in first sequence and put a hand down on the second 2A in the second sequence. And Joannie has yet to land a 3/3 in competition (aside from the 3T/3T she landed twice in the 2004-2005 season).

    I do not believe that Joannie has ever had a completely clean FS, and that inevitably has been because of jumps. So it is a bit ludicrous to suggest that Joannie is a better jumper than skaters who have won multiple world medals.
    Last edited by chuckm; 06-04-2008 at 08:52 PM.

  12. #12
    "Hold an edge and look sexy!" museksk8r's Avatar
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    chuck, the judges' protocols tell the truth that was reflected in my post in terms of the QUALITY of Joannie's jumps. Look at the protocols from Worlds and you will find no "we" "<" notations on any of Joannie's jumps. You can't say the same for Mao Asada and Yukari Nakano. That's a fact whether you accept it or not.

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    Ah, but at the age of 17, Mao Asada is 2008 World Champion, 2007-2008 GPF silver medalist, 2007 World silver medalist, 2006-2007 GPF silver medalist, 2006 World Junior Silver medalist, 2005-2006 GPF Champion, 2005 World Junior Champion, 2004-2005 JGPF Champion. She has never finished off the podium at any international competition she has entered, and for her GP events has received 4 gold, 1 silver, and 1 bronze medal. She won both JGP events she competed in, and both Novice International events she entered. She is the 2007 and 2008 Japanese Champion.

    At 22, Yukari is not as accomplished as Mao Asada, but she underwent a major makeover after the 2004-2005 season when she struggled after earlier Junior successes. She has competed at the last 3 World Championships and never finished worse than 5th; she was 4th in 2008. She competed at 4 4CC championships, and was 2nd in 2006 and 3rd in 2003. She was the silver Junior World medalist in 2002. She has competed in 12 GP events and has 1 gold, 3 silver and 2 bronze medals; she made the GPF in 2007-2008 and 2005-2006; she was the 2005-2006 GPF bronze medalist. She competed in 6 JGP events and won 2 gold, 2 silver, and 1 bronze medal. She made it to 3 JGPF events and won JPGF bronze in 2001. Yukari won the 2007 Asian Winter Games. She has been bronze medalist at the last two Japanese Championships.


    At 23, Joannie Rochette has never won an ISU Championship event. She has competed in 6 World Championships and never won a medal: her best finish was 5th in 2008; she was 10th in 2007, 7th in 2006, 11th in 2005, 8th in 2004, and 17th in 2003. She has competed in 5 4CC Championships and her best finishes were 2nd in 2008 and 3rd in 2007. She competed at 2 JW Championships, and her best finish was 5th in 2002. She made it to one GPF Championship, where she placed 3rd in 2004-2005. In the GP, she has competed in 10 events, and has 2 gold medals, 1 silver, and 3 bronze. In her 4 JGP events, she won 1 bronze medal. She is a 4-time Canadian Champion (2005-2008). She never made it to the JGPF.

    Seeing as how Joannie jumps better than both of these ladies, why is it that she has not had the same level of success as they have? The answer is that while Joannie doesn't flutz or lip and (except for her 3/3 attempts) doesn't underrotate, she also doesn't always land her jumps consistently, and the landings aren't always clean, with step outs and hand downs. She also skates with noticeable effort; I feel exhausted when her FS is finally over. Nakano and Asada both skate as if it were easy for them, and the overall effect watching them is lightness and freedom of movement. That is also why they both tend to get much higher PCS scores than Joannie does.
    Last edited by chuckm; 06-04-2008 at 10:22 PM.

  14. #14
    Custom Title fumie_fumie's Avatar
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    I believe Yukari is 23 and Joannie is 22.

  15. #15
    "Hold an edge and look sexy!" museksk8r's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckm View Post
    At 23, Joannie Rochette has never won an ISU Championship event.
    The 2 golds she won at Trophee Eric Bompard in 2004 and Skate Canada in 2006 were both ISU Championship events, as a matter of fact.

    I really have no idea why you believe Yukari Nakano is leagues above Joannie Rochette in terms of ability and success. Where are all of Nakano's World medals? The times she has placed above Joannie, it's been by small fractions of points, similar to the spread of the medalists from this year's World Championships. Those small fractions of points between Nakano and Rochette can easily be attained by Joannie. Saying Nakano is so much better than Rochette is like someone saying Yu-Na Kim is so much better than Mao Asada. Basically, the two skaters are on equal footing, IMO.

    You can go on with your Canadian hate tirades until you're blue in the face, but you will never convince me that Joannie is as miserable a skater as you believe her to be.

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