Joannie Rochette

demarinis5 · Jun 7, 2008

Getting back on topic regarding the original question can Joannie medal. I always liked Joannie's skating. She has some great qualities that I really like and appreciate That said IMO YuNa and Mao have surpassed Joannie technically and artistically. I am not sure that even if Joannie skates a clean program she can score higher than either of those two ladies. Also vying for the same medals we have Miki and Kostner who have in the past beaten YuNa and Mao.I would love to see Joannie medal at Worlds and I think she is capable, but with the deep ladies field it is going to be tough and not just for Joannie. I will be rooting for her though.

Joesitz (RIP) · Jun 8, 2008

Rochette is a hi tech skater - a top 5 skater, for me - who always loses it somewhere in the performance of her LP. I don't know how that can be corrected. I wish I could, she is a great skater.

Now for those comparing her to Kwan. Why in the first place? One has to be nitty gritty to put Kwan down. Kwan, imo, was never the best at any one element except her change edge spiral. What made her better than anyone else was that she never lost 'it' during her SPs and LPs. She knew how to bring the audience into her performances. If one wants to compare Kwan I believe they should use Peggy Flemming for that purpose. Who do you think was the better performer?

Joe

chuckm · Jun 8, 2008

Joesitz said:
Rochette is a hi tech skater - a top 5 skater, for me - who always loses it somewhere in the performance of her LP. I don't know how that can be corrected. I wish I could, she is a great skater.

Now for those comparing her to Kwan. Why in the first place? One has to be nitty gritty to put Kwan down. Kwan, imo, was never the best at any one element except her change edge spiral. What made her better than anyone else was that she never lost 'it' during her SPs and LPs. She knew how to bring the audience into her performances. If one wants to compare Kwan I believe they should use Peggy Flemming for that purpose. Who do you think was the better performer?

Joe

Thanks, Joe.

Mathman · Jun 8, 2008

silver.blades said:
This is where it gets subjective. You mentioned in an earlier post what a great performer Michelle Kwan was and how she reached over the boards to the audience. I never got that from her...

Actually, IMHO that's one of the few things in figure skating that can be measured with a certain amount of objectivity. You set up an applause meter at rinkside and see what it records.

silver.blades · Jun 8, 2008

^but was the reception the same world wide?
It's still subjective and can change based on skaters nationality and the venue they are performing in. Just because a large group of people agrees dosn't make something lose its subjectivity.

singerskates · Jun 8, 2008

What I hope Joannie will do for next year is the following (I know, it sounds like a textbook.):

Get rid of every single jump sequence and replace it with a jump combination.

Do only triple/triple combos.

Do the 2 Axel by itself in programs until she has a consistant 3 Axel (95% or better in practice).

Start working on the 4 Salchow.

Use the 3 Loop for the second half of at least one of her 3/3 combos.

Do a Bieillman position in at least one of her spins.

Get some terrific twisty Jeffery Buttle spin positions from Jeff for her sit spins.

Take some ice dance lessons from Marie France and Patrice Lauzon to help up the anti on her footwork sessions. I'd love to see her performing level 3's.

And Keep Having Fun!

fumie_fumie said:
I love Mathman's idea.

So What does Joannie Rochette have to do to take the final step onto the podium?

She is facing even steeper competition next year with all the strong US ladies moving up to the senior field.

Honest assessment of her status, training will be appreciated.

singerskates · Jun 8, 2008

fairly4 said:
musketerr,

yes those are the facts, but fact this, in Skate Canada, which Mao, Joannie and Yurkari competed at.The Skate Canada DIDN'T take anything off for edges (no wrong edge call whatsoever), whereever Caroline Zhang went they did take off, for wrong edges, underrotation and such. Skate AMERica they nailed every single skater their so it followed all skaters throughout the grand prix series, because SKATE CANADA DID NO such thing, the skaters (Joannie, Mao, Yurkari almost got a free pass until later in the year.)

Oh really. Maybe you should take a look at the detailed result sheet from the 2008 Homesense Skate Canada International Grand Prix event.

I give you the .pdf link right here;

http://www.isufs.org/results/gpcan07/sc07_Ladies_FS_Scores.pdf

You'll see that the judges do take off points for wrong edges in Canada. And by the way, it isn't Skate Canada who chose the judges but the ISU. And at Canadians, the judges are hard on their skaters. When a Canadian judge judges for an ISU event, they tend to mark the Canadian harder than skaters from anywhere else. No bias in Canada.

chuckm · Jun 8, 2008

singerskates said:
Oh really. Maybe you should take a look at the detailed result sheet from the 2008 Homesense Skate Canada International Grand Prix event.

I give you the .pdf link right here;

http://www.isufs.org/results/gpcan07/sc07_Ladies_FS_Scores.pdf

You'll see that the judges do take off points for wrong edges in Canada. And by the way, it isn't Skate Canada who chose the judges but the ISU. And at Canadians, the judges are hard on their skaters. When a Canadian judge judges for an ISU event, they tend to mark the Canadian harder than skaters from anywhere else. No bias in Canada.

The poster you are criticizing was talking about Skate Canada the federation at Canadian NATIONALS, not Skate Canada the ISU competition. Canadian Nationals scoresheets didn't even include the symbol "e" for edge deductions. NO Canadian skater got an edge deduction at Nationals, although several Canadian skaters had been dinged for flutzing and lipping during Grand Prix events.

What I hope Joannie will do for next year is the following (I know, it sounds like a textbook.):

Do only triple/triple combos.

The rules would not allow ANY skater to do only 3/3s as combos.

Do the 2 Axel by itself in programs until she has a consistant 3 Axel (95% or better in practice).

Start working on the 4 Salchow.

Doing a 2A consistently has little to do with developing the ability to do a 3A. A 3A requires a great deal more strength than a 2A. And there are very few MALE skaters who land the 3A at a 95% rate in practice.

By the same token, just because Joannie has a good 3S doesn't mean she could easily do a 4S.

You are expecting far, far too much of a skater who will turn 23 on her next birthday. If she doesn't have 'super' jumps at 22, she isn't going to get them. Ando had 4S at 14, but she never again landed a ratified 4S in competition after that.

Use the 3 Loop for the second half of at least one of her 3/3 combos.

Joannie has made two 3/3 attempts this season; she fell on the first attempt, and on the second attempt, the second jump was called UR. Very few skaters try 3L as a second jump because it is often dinged for UR (it's the nature of the loop).

Do a Bieillman position in at least one of her spins.

Get some terrific twisty Jeffery Buttle spin positions from Jeff for her sit spins.

Take some ice dance lessons from Marie France and Patrice Lauzon to help up the anti on her footwork sessions. I'd love to see her performing level 3's.

One of Joannie's problems is stiffness in her upper body, and it is most noticeable in her spins. She probably is not flexible enough to do the Biellmann or the kind of spins Buttle can do.

I suspect upper body stiffness also affects her ability to achieve high levels in her footwork.

It's great to come up with ideas for Joannie, but they have to take into consideration what her basic capabilities are.

i love to skate · Jun 9, 2008

chuckm said:
The poster you are criticizing was talking about Skate Canada the federation at Canadian NATIONALS, not Skate Canada the ISU competition. Canadian Nationals scoresheets didn't even include the symbol "e" for edge deductions. NO Canadian skater got an edge deduction at Nationals, although several Canadian skaters had been dinged for flutzing and lipping during Grand Prix events.

No, the poster was talking about Skate Canada, not Canadian Nationals as they mentioned Mao and Yukari at that competition...

museksk8r · Jun 9, 2008

I'd really like to see Joannie work on power stroking, speed, and centering as well as more variations of positions in her spins. Improvements in these areas can help to improve her PCS. Her edging and jump technique are wonderful as they are. She needs more confidence and consistency. The weakest area of her skating for me is her spinning. She gets the high levels on them, but doesn't always get the best GOE marks on her spins because of losing centering and/or lack of speed. I don't want her to train or attempt a 3Axel or a quad jump because I actually want her healthy enough to compete for 2010. She is getting high levels on her elements as evidenced at Worlds where she is getting levels 3 and 4 on everything. PCS is the greatest problem in Joannie's marks and results. I don't expect her PCS to be at the level of Yu-Na or Mao, but it is really disturbing to me to see her in the past being marked lower in PCS than Miki Ando and Kimmie Meissner. This, for me, begs the question, "what are the judges watching and/or smoking?"

For her SP, I'd like to see Joannie attempt a layout of 3toe+3toe, 3Lutz, and 2Axel. She was fully rotating the toe combination during the '04-'05 season the 3 times she landed it in competition. For her LP, I'd like to see her ditch the sequence attempts and instead attempt: 3Lutz+2toe+2loop, 3Salchow+3toe, 3loop, *3flip, *3Lutz, *3Salchow, *2Axel+2loop (* = post 2 minute mark).

GO JOANNIE! :love:

Mathman · Jun 9, 2008

silver.blades said:
Just because a large group of people agrees dosn't make something lose its subjectivity.

That is well said, and an excellent point.

In a sport like figure skating, I think fans make an emotional investment in the skaters that they like. When a skater "reaches across the boards to the audience," it's a two-way reach.

Yuka Sato -- the moment her name is announced, I start smiling. There is just something about her opening pose that says, OK, Mathman, all those problems you think you have in real life? Forget that, and check out this double Axel! :love:

rochettefan · Jun 9, 2008

Joannie had an excellent season by most standards. She did well on the Grand Prix and was the best of the rest pretty much then she stepped up pretty well at the Four Continents and at Worlds again. One thing I like about Joannie is how rarely we see a real total meltdown as we occasionally do from some other top-10 skaters excluding the very upper tier. Last time was in two year's ago grand prix in France. Nobody in the top 10 are really consistent besides Asada and Kim and Nakano mostly. I think Joannie already has what it takes to grab the bronze medal. She just needs that triple-triple solid and she made good progress by completing it underrotated at Four Continents. And to be totally clean, no little distracting errors as she tends to have a couple in otherwise clean skates. If Joannie really got the triple triple down and used it in both short and long like the top ladies, then she has enough overall nice qualities to compete with the others for bronze. But she will need to be perfect and have a great Grand Prix littered with tripletriples to get the judges to notice her as a contender again. Then maybe those PCS will come up a bit. Judges have shown they are willing to forgive faults in their medalists and hers are no more glaring then the other contenders (Nakano with her wrap and underrotations, Kostner with occassional meltdown and sloppy landings). The young up and coming Americans might present a challenge for her depends how they progress. Joannie needs to stay in the top five next year and become part of the triple-triple club to set; herself up for the totally clean performance in Vancouver. That is my hope for her anyway. But I have to respectfully disagree with people who find her performances flat and emotionless. You only have to watch her Firebird program from nationals when she burst onto the scene to know the potential she has to bring the crowd to its feet when she is totally clean. And I loved Don Juan. Thought she did a great job with it, but seemed maybe a bit unconditioned with a tendency to make small errors in the second half of her programs. Eh, as Joannie is my username, I had to chime in and defend her a little bit.

fumie_fumie · Jun 9, 2008

rochettefan said:
Joannie had an excellent season by most standards.

Excellent post. It would have been better you break into smaller paragraph, but, the message is loud and clear.

Hope Jo has even better season and builds up a strong momentum to 2010.

Honestly, I don't care what Michelle Kwan did or didn't. Joannie is Joannie, and Kwan is Kwan. No need to knock Jo down, just because she is not Michelle Kwan.

chuckm · Jun 10, 2008

rochettefan said:
But I have to respectfully disagree with people who find her performances flat and emotionless. You only have to watch her Firebird program from nationals when she burst onto the scene to know the potential she has to bring the crowd to its feet when she is totally clean. And I loved Don Juan. Thought she did a great job with it, but seemed maybe a bit unconditioned with a tendency to make small errors in the second half of her programs.

I agree that Firebird was Joannie's best FS ever. The programs that she has done since then seem flat and emotionless by comparison. I hope she comes up with something better for this coming season than she's had for the past 3 years.

shine · Jun 10, 2008

museksk8r said:
You can go on with your Canadian hate tirades until you're blue in the face, but you will never convince me that Joannie is as miserable a skater as you believe her to be.

You can honestly call it an accomplishment when chuckm has consistently spent time looking up detailed histories and stats just to prove that a skater sucks. And it's not just in this thread but in numerous others in the past as well. You've gotta give him credits for THAT kind of effort.

shine · Jun 10, 2008

fairly4 said:
glad to hear it is your opinion that joannie has michelle's grace. because she is nowhere near it.she clunky, slow, no expression. shut off the music, you don't feel a thing from her skating like sasha, unlike sasha she does show a bit more passion, sasha skated like she had a board up her---. no passion, stiff, but that is what the judges wanted.

also joannie rarely gets call on her edges. (per candian coaches and judges because they don't want to get call for them) to bad michelle did even when it really didn't count.
joannes jumps are okay not great. but doable In other words --she does the jump .
as far as gp zhang easier hardly. skate canada didn't call edge jumps, skate america did, canadian nationals didn't call edged jumps , caroline zhang got nailed when the junior skaters didn't mirai, rachel and even ashley, but kimmie and caroline did.
caroline zhang didnn't have easier grand prix event.
if you guys are totally honest, joannie has lots to improve, can she medal. probably --but it is more mental with her than anything

and I'm VERY glad that this is YOUR own opinion.

shine · Jun 10, 2008

chuckm said:
Joannie is a strong and very competent skater, and that is about it.

Wow, so I guess that concludes everything.

shine · Jun 10, 2008

I personally think that in the past 2 or 3 years, we've only gotten to see the best of Joannie Rochette only in her exhibition programs where her musicality and attention to details really shine(as well as her text-book jumps). Due to a lack of confidence and nerves she tenses up during competitions and haven't been able to perform up to her full ability. The last time Joannie was completely beautiful and free I think was at Worlds 2004, where the LP brought me to tears.
And perhaps the Olympic LP skate.

I hope the old Joannie comes back, while having improved her footwork and spins.

fiercemao · Jun 10, 2008

anybody heard anything about Joannie's new programs, training etc?

antmanb · Jun 10, 2008

museksk8r said:
For her SP, I'd like to see Joannie attempt a layout of 3toe+3toe, 3Lutz, and 2Axel. She was fully rotating the toe combination during the '04-'05 season the 3 times she landed it in competition. For her LP, I'd like to see her ditch the sequence attempts and instead attempt: 3Lutz+2toe+2loop, 3Salchow+3toe, 3loop, *3flip, *3Lutz, *3Salchow, *2Axel+2loop (* = post 2 minute mark).

GO JOANNIE!

I think Joannie is doing the right thing using the 3F/3T as her combo. While she didn't have success with it this past season, it's the getting used to trying it and having it down by the time the Olympic season rolls around.

With the suggested LP layout i think she leaves too many points on the table when the podium favourties will be attempting more difficult 3/3s and 3As. Also i think 2A/2R is a pretty tough combination to pull off at the end. I would suggest that, making the fewest amendments to your suggestion, the 3F be in combo with a double toe (or a "plan b" triple if she's missed it on the salchow) Instead of repeating the Salchow she repeat the flip and finish with a solo double axel.

I think in terms of PCS Joannie needs to work with someone who can help her skate a little "looser". One of the things that i always notice is that her arms and upper body seem quite stiff. As a result it is more difficult to convincingly portray softer parts of the music or use the movement in her upper body to obtain higher levels in footwork sequences to the best effect because she appears stiff. If she can't learn to be softer in her upper body then i think using powerful music for both programs would disguise this best and go nowhere near the soft piano pieces that seem to be a favourite with the ladies.

Ant

Joannie Rochette

demarinis5

Gold for the Winter Prince!

Joesitz (RIP)

chuckm

Mathman

silver.blades

singerskates

singerskates

chuckm

i love to skate

museksk8r

Mathman

rochettefan

fumie_fumie

chuckm

shine

shine

shine

shine

fiercemao

Match Penalty

antmanb

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