Morozov blames agent for split with Takahashi v.2

Bennett · Jun 4, 2008

Here he sounds like it was a conscious decision to split with Daisuke and choose Oda.

I am not interested in who was right or wrong. But what interested me was his attitude. It sounds like he has really a lot of fighting spirit and faith in his success, which perhaps has enabled him to help his students win the games. I wish Nobunari all the best. Morosov would be a good resource for him to boost his confidence. Morosov is not easily shaken and always a positive thinker to find his best possible ways to survive. He has really strong charisma as a coach and a person. He's a good person to rely on when you have to compete under a lot of pressures.

NatachaHatawa · Jun 4, 2008

Buttercup said:
I'm more inclined to believe Dai, who generally comes across as a nice guy, over Morozov. If I'm not mistaken, this is not the first time Morozov has decided to work with a rival of one of his skaters - didn't he leave Tarasova over something similar? I also seem to recall him working with Plushy and Joubert at the same time (which did not go over well with Brian).

As for knowing ahead of time that Dai would do badly at worlds, either he's trying to make himself look smart, or he was not doing a good job as a coach. Honestly, if Morozov thinks something's not working with a skater, he should tell the skater, not the journalists. There's an interview here in which Joubert was told by the interviewer that Morozov said - two weeks before 06 Olys -that Joubert would not medal (http://www.goldenskate.com/articles/2006/012007.shtml). He could have just said "go back to the Matrix" which strikes me as more helpful than what he apparently did say at the time.

He may be very good at putting together programs, but I think Mr. Morozov thinks a bit too highly of himself. And unless his comments were taken out of context, I think that was hardly a classy interview.

I couldn't agree more. What strikes me is that he never sticks with a skater. This is a fundamental difference between him and Tarasova. Although Morozov has done some great stuff, he'll never be as prestigiouse as her because all medals that his students will get won't really be seen as a consequence of his work, contrary to tarasova, who sticks with her skaters for years.

What's interesting to note is that whenever Morozov works with one of his pupils' rivals, they always leave him, which isn't the case of all coaches that train rivals. I think this says something about the trust (or lack of) that skaters have him.
The most obviouse case was the Joubert vs Plushenko one. The year Morozov created Brian's worst LP ever happened to be the year he worked with Evgeni. I'm not saying he did it on purpouse, that there was some sort of "make Evgeni win" conspiracy, but I belive that it really damaged his image in skaters' minds.

Angelluv · Jun 4, 2008

Honestly, I'm inclined to believe Taki too over Morozov. Morozov's behavior in all of this is inappropriate and as a coach/teacher, he should be held to higher standards.

libby · Jun 4, 2008

I think Morozov has burned some important bridges by talking to this writer. The Japanese federation is notoriously hypersensitive about any criticism toward any of their own, and they are touchy about giving credit to foreigners for any of their skaters' successes. "Saving face" is a very important cultural concept to the Japanese.

Morozov tends not to be particularly culturally sensitive to that kind of thing, but I think he may have gone too far by publicly attacking a well-known Japanese agent and claiming so much of the credit for his Japanese students' successes for himself. The Japanese federation has ultimate control over where and with whom their skaters can train, and ticking them off in any way may ultimately prove to be a costly error for Morozov. If the Japanese federation should feel that his comments are disrespectful and insulting and decide to take their skaters away from him, he will be left without all those prize students he takes the credit for.

vlaurend · Jun 4, 2008

Again, I will preface this by saying that I don't blame Daisuke for any of this and I am not normally inclined to defend Morozov. . . BUT this is not really about whether we choose to believe Morozov or Takahashi. It's about whether we choose to believe Morozov or Ihara (the agent).

Does anyone know anything about Ihara? if not, how do we know he isn't even more self-serving and deceptive than Morozov? It certainly wouldn't be the first time an innocent talent allowed an ambitious agent to make his decisions for him.

Also, if saving face is so valued in Japan, that makes Ihara twice as guilty, since he told the media that Morozov had taken on Oda without telling Takahashi. That's the kind of thing that can ruin an elite coach's reputation in this sport, and there was no need to give a reason to the public anyway. It would have been easy to let *everyone* save face by saying Takahashi needed to spend more time training in Japan because he's going to grad school, or Takahashi just felt that he needed a change. So this doesn't look like a Japanese-Russian culture clash, it just looks like a spat between a coach and an agent, each of whom wanted more control over this athlete and wanted to make the other look bad.

Hsuhs · Jun 4, 2008

vlaurend said:
Did Ihara save Morozov's face by telling the whole world that Morozov had taken on Oda without telling Takahashi?

We know by now that Oda himself has talked about Morozov approaching him (on several occasions) about becoming his coach. What we don't know is when it started.

vlaurend · Jun 4, 2008

Hsuhs said:
We know by now that Oda himself has talked about Morozov approaching him (on several occasions) about becoming his coach. What we don't know is when it started.

Very interesting. . . I wonder if Morozov hated Ihara so much that he figured he was going to lose Takahashi anyway? There are probably lots of layers to this story that we will never know. . . and probably very few completely innocent parties.

Hsuhs · Jun 4, 2008

vlaurend said:
if Morozov hated Ihara so much that he figured he was going to lose Takahashi anyway?

Sounds like a love triangle gone psycho.

vlaurend · Jun 4, 2008

Hsuhs said:
Sounds like a love triangle gone psycho.

I was thinking the same thing! But somehow I feel like Morozov would have preferred the psycho love triangle, given the choice. :laugh:

But seriously. . . The coach and agent do seem to have different priorities. Agents typically get paid as a percentage of their clients' revenue, and I imagine the ice show gigs Ihara gets for Takahashi make him a lot more money than the competitions he does. But of course the coach would want him to limit all of his activities outside of competitions and competition training, which would explain why Morozov might say Takahashi and his agent chose the money-making opportunity over him.

Hsuhs · Jun 4, 2008

vlaurend said:
Agents typically get paid as a percentage of their clients' revenue

But so do choreographers. I remember reading an article about a conflict between Tarasova and Kulik, how she wasn't happy with him skating her programs (after turning professional) and not paying.

inskate · Jun 4, 2008

BUT this is not really about whether we choose to believe Morozov or Takahashi. It's about whether we choose to believe Morozov or Ihara (the agent).

I agree with this.

As for Morozov, I don't think it's really a case of "not sticking with the skater". It looks like he wasn't happy with Ihara already at the beginning of the season, but he stayed with Daisuke as long as he could. If the cooperation between him and the agent really was that difficult, then continuing to stick with the current situation would only hurt Daisuke's chances in competition. I think that after Dai's poor showing at Worlds Nikolai reached the end of his tether.

Last off-season, he refused to coach Johnny Weir stating he was too busy with his current students. I doubt that now, getting close to the Olympics, he would suddenly feel like taking on another pupil, especially one that would be a direct competitor to his most successful student.

Looking back, perhaps it's too bad that he didn't made this public in a gentler way right after things started going awry, but perhaps to the very last second he thought that he will be able to salvage the relationship with Daisuke. I wouldn't be surprised if his suggestion to train Nobunari was initially an attempt to scare Ihara away, and Ihara didn't even take it seriously and therefore did not inform Daisuke.

I'm a bit miffed at Gallagher, it's not the first time that he wrote an article in the most sensationalist way possible (and a few times I caught him at making mistakes and giving false or misleading information). It looks to me as if he approached Morozov in a friendly manner, and the latter just let things that bothered him out, not quite expecting that they will made the press in such a raw form. Hopefully from now on he will learn that the press is not to be trusted.

ETA: I just wanted to reply to this comment:

I couldn't agree more. What strikes me is that he never sticks with a skater. This is a fundamental difference between him and Tarasova. (...)

(...)
The most obviouse case was the Joubert vs Plushenko one. The year Morozov created Brian's worst LP ever happened to be the year he worked with Evgeni. (...)quote]

But what Morozov did is not very much different from how other choreographers/coaches work, including Tatiana:

VN: Do you students ever become jealous? For example, how did Shizuka feel about the fact that you were making programs for Kwan?

TT: I didn’t ask her. It is my profession - to help skaters. I’ve never swore that I would work only with one of them. I do what I can and what is interesting for me. I don’t go after any of the skaters, don’t “grab them by the hands”. I hardly speak any foreign language. But if somebody needs me, they manage to get my phone number, just the way Michelle Kwan did.

Click to expand...

http://www.goldskate.ru/media/tarasova_eng.shtml

Although Morozov has done some great stuff, he'll never be as prestigiouse as her because all medals that his students will get won't really be seen as a consequence of his work, contrary to tarasova, who sticks with her skaters for years.

Click to expand...

I don't have time to find and quote all the articles, but all the athlethes whom he worked with and who wanted to work with him have a great respect for him. I've read numerous articles where he was very much praised for his hard work. The Japanese TV made an entire program about him (which my friend is translating tight now and will put on YT in a week or so). He is often called "champion maker" or "dream maker". Miki called him "a person who I couldn't do without".

I think it's useless to compare Tatiana's career to Nikolai's right now, because Nikolai has been working as a coach for much, much shorter time (and, actually, he was extremely successful so far). And it's not like Tatiana hasn't lost any skaters (Sasha, Shizuka). It's a part of being a coach.

Joesitz (RIP) · Jun 5, 2008

Hsuhs said:
We know by now that Oda himself has talked about Morozov approaching him (on several occasions) about becoming his coach. What we don't know is when it started.

That's an eye opener. No coach likes to admit he went after a skater. They prefer the skater came to the coach.

That's like a lawyer chasing a fire alert.

Joe

Buttercup · Jun 5, 2008

As figure skating becomes increasingly international and intercultural in terms of skater-coach partnerships, everyone would do well to be respectful of cultural differences. I have no idea if this was a problem for Morozov/Takahashi, who did manage to get along fairly well for several years. I guess only they know.

NatachaHatawa · Jun 5, 2008

inskate said:
I don't have time to find and quote all the articles, but all the athlethes whom he worked with and who wanted to work with him have a great respect for him. I've read numerous articles where he was very much praised for his hard work. The Japanese TV made an entire program about him (which my friend is translating tight now and will put on YT in a week or so). He is often called "champion maker" or "dream maker". Miki called him "a person who I couldn't do without".

I think it's useless to compare Tatiana's career to Nikolai's right now, because Nikolai has been working as a coach for much, much shorter time (and, actually, he was extremely successful so far). And it's not like Tatiana hasn't lost any skaters (Sasha, Shizuka). It's a part of being a coach.

Oh, I'm not questioning Nikolai's work or what he brings to skaters, it's because Nikolai so far hasn't spent many years with a particular skater (except Yagudin), in people's minds he's less associated to his skaters' medals than Tatiana is to her's. With Tatiana's skaters, there's more of a "Tarasova's pupil" thing than there is a "Morozov's pupil" thing.

vlaurend · Jun 5, 2008

inskate said:
As for Morozov, I don't think it's really a case of "not sticking with the skater". It looks like he wasn't happy with Ihara already at the beginning of the season, but he stayed with Daisuke as long as he could. If the cooperation between him and the agent really was that difficult, then continuing to stick with the current situation would only hurt Daisuke's chances in competition. I think that after Dai's poor showing at Worlds Nikolai reached the end of his tether.

Last off-season, he refused to coach Johnny Weir stating he was too busy with his current students. I doubt that now, getting close to the Olympics, he would suddenly feel like taking on another pupil, especially one that would be a direct competitor to his most successful student.

Looking back, perhaps it's too bad that he didn't made this public in a gentler way right after things started going awry, but perhaps to the very last second he thought that he will be able to salvage the relationship with Daisuke. I wouldn't be surprised if his suggestion to train Nobunari was initially an attempt to scare Ihara away, and Ihara didn't even take it seriously and therefore did not inform Daisuke.

I'm a bit miffed at Gallagher, it's not the first time that he wrote an article in the most sensationalist way possible (and a few times I caught him at making mistakes and giving false or misleading information). It looks to me as if he approached Morozov in a friendly manner, and the latter just let things that bothered him out, not quite expecting that they will made the press in such a raw form. Hopefully from now on he will learn that the press is not to be trusted.

Thanks for the thoughtful, balanced viewpoint. As someone smart once said, "There are always three sides to everything: Yours, mine, and the truth."
That's also a very interesting point about possible reasons for talking to Oda.

Joesitz (RIP) · Jun 5, 2008

TT and Nikolai are Master Coaches. They do not train beginners (except for money). They train skaters who are already top 10 skaters and imo, they will further train (if it is necessary) only the best of the top 10. Nikoliai trains in USA and TT in Russia. Nikolai convinces a skater to train with him. TT trains a skater who asks for her and she approves.

What went on with Morozov and Takahashi is not clear. But apparently Morozov did go after Oda unless someone knows his Agent went to Nikolai.

Joe

dancingqueen · Jun 6, 2008

As for about the article,

The situation between Morozov , Daisuke and the agent, I don’t take it so seriously about this. We can discuss about it but no one knows the truth right now, except those three, and we may all find out the truth at some later time.

dorispulaski · Jun 6, 2008

A discussion of cultural differences in the concept of saving face has been moved to the political forum, where it more properly belongs.

Here's the URL:
http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22260

For those interested, please continue your discussion of saving face there.

Now let's here more about Dai, Morozov, and the agent!

NatachaHatawa · Jun 8, 2008

dancingqueen said:
As for about the article,

The situation between Morozov , Daisuke and the agent, I don’t take it so seriously about this. We can discuss about it but no one knows the truth right now, except those three, and we may all find out the truth at some later time.

I'm not sure we will, not in the near future. Ihara will obviously tell a different story to Nikolai's, and Dai will tell another one too. One thing that's pretty obvious is that it's a case of Nikolai vs Ihara, though we don't know who's really at fault. It's a shame that Dai's stuck in between the two, expecially as the work they did together was great.

Joesitz (RIP) · Jun 8, 2008

Enough, enough of all this

Is any skater really hurting by all of it? What role does Oda play in all this? Facts please, I read enough specs.

Joe

Morozov blames agent for split with Takahashi v.2

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NatachaHatawa

vlaurend

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dorispulaski

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