Could someone explain to me the 2002 Olympic womens results?

Irina's skate was sloppy and uninspired. Almost like she thought the gold was hers after Michelle faltered. Remember how the judges at GPF gave Irina that huge gift? I think she expected it agian. Sarah skated lights out and won. She deserved it. Had the placements in the SP been different, the skaters would've performed differently in the LP. No guarantee Irina would've won the gold. She choked in the LP, just as Kwan did, so imagine what would've happened to Irina if 1st after the SP? There are no could've, should've, would've's. Sarah won. Some judges tried to give it to Irina unjustly. there are some that still feel Michelle should've beaten Irina in the LP and won the gold and that Irina was held up. Sarah won. She was the best skater that night, and that is what the competitions are all about. Not who skated the best at the last competition or who should've skated the best.

bethissoawesome said:

Quick question: If Sasha had cleanly landed her opening triple-triple, what would the final podium have looked like with her going into the LP in 3rd place. And what do you think her standing in the LP would have been?

Click to expand...

If Sasha had cleanly landed her opening triple triple, and, had not fallen on another jump, she may have medaled -- possibly even becoming the first woman to win the OGM without first winning a medal at worlds. However, the chances of Sasha landing the triple triple but not falling on something else are slim.

I think, however, a clean performance from Sasha might have knocked Michelle's psychological state into something more competitive. IMO, when MK ended up first after the SP, and then Sarah's great skate, Michelle took the ice looking like a deer in the headlights -- it was deja vu, and the "rhyming names" (Tara; Sarah) may have been a big factor -- which would not have existed if Sasha had skated cleanly.

I also believe that Michelle would have skated better in the FS if she had been in second place after the SP. No matter who her coach was, she has a long history of good free skates when she has to come from behind (even if they don't necessarily win) -- her Worlds '02 FS; and her FS at Nats and Worlds in '04 are examples. Furthermore, IIRC, she landed her 3/3 more frequently when she was behind after the SP (Championship Series Final in '96; Worlds FS in '97, '00 and '01, etc.)

bethissoawesome said:

Quick question: If Sasha had cleanly landed her opening triple-triple, what would the final podium have looked like with her going into the LP in 3rd place. And what do you think her standing in the LP would have been?

Click to expand...

Well the fact that she was in 3rd after the SP was nonsense. She clearly had the best SP of the night. it was clean and full of wonderful interpretation and choreography.

anyway, considering she was in 3rd place, I would have to assume that if she landed the 3/3, or maybe even a clean 3/2, she would have medaled. The very least she would have held on third, or maybe even taken second. Either way, michelle would have been bumped off the podium, something the judges would not allow.

I wasn't opposed to Irina finishing ahead of Michelle....Yes some of her jump landings were shaky but if I recally they weren't two footed for the most part.

Plus, I remember reading that some of the judges quietly commented in the next day meeting about Michelle's program. How it was really empty of choregraphy and transitions. And I think they are right it's not like Michelle's program was a masterpiece although it may not be the the choregrapher's fault given Michelle has a habit of changing her program all the time... Yeah Michelle is a lovely skater, but I don't think you deserve high artistic marks for crossover, crossover, jump, jump, crossover.. It's not like she was ever that fast. Especially with that two hands down thing.

Based on what I saw Sarah deserved her win. But IF she did underrotate those jumps like she did, I can totally see why Irina was ticked off. In fact, I think Irina said something about there were technical problems with Sarah's skating which is why Sarah shouldn't have won...

bekalc said:

Plus, I remember reading that some of the judges quietly commented in the next day meeting about Michelle's program. How it was really empty of choregraphy and transitions.

Click to expand...

Very quietly indeed. I think it was more the Internet boards that made these comments.

I'm with Fossi. Sarah won. Michelle fell. Irina was lackluster. Sasha took herself out of it. That's life.

Mathman said:

Very quietly indeed. I think it was more the Internet boards that made these comments.

I'm with Fossi. Sarah won. Michelle fell. Irina was lackluster. Sasha took herself out of it. That's life.

Click to expand...

NO. I read the article... I don't remember where the article was because it was 6 years ago. But the article is something I read, and I remember.

Tinymavy15 said:

Well the fact that she was in 3rd after the SP was nonsense. She clearly had the best SP of the night. it was clean and full of wonderful interpretation and choreography.

anyway, considering she was in 3rd place, I would have to assume that if she landed the 3/3, or maybe even a clean 3/2, she would have medaled. The very least she would have held on third, or maybe even taken second. Either way, michelle would have been bumped off the podium, something the judges would not allow.

Click to expand...

Sasha had the best SP? I think we watched a different version of the 2002 Olympics.

Tinymavy15 said:

anyway, considering she was in 3rd place, I would have to assume that if she landed the 3/3, or maybe even a clean 3/2, she would have medaled. The very least she would have held on third, or maybe even taken second. Either way, michelle would have been bumped off the podium, something the judges would not allow.

Click to expand...

well, considering Sarah did land the 2 3x3s.........
and what if Irina, Michelle and anyone else did land 3x3s?......
If arguments never really work.

LOL, yes, the past is the past. But I will always wonder if Sasha skated a clean LP, even with just having one 3-3 and not two like Miss Hughes, would it have been enough to put her in 1st for the LP... *sigh*

With a 1st place long, the podium would have been
1. Sasha Cohen - 2.5
2. Sarah Hughes - 4.0
3. Irina Slutskaya - 4.0
4. Michelle Kwan - 4.5

A 2nd place in the LP for Sasha would have been
1. Sarah Hughes - 3.0
2. Sasha Cohen - 3.5
3. Irina Slutskaya - 4.0
4. Michelle Kwan - 4.5

And 3rd...
1. Sarah Hughes - 3.0
2. Irina Slutskaya - 3.0
3. Sasha Cohen - 4.5
4. Michelle Kwan - 4.5

(Calling Mathman: are those placements correct?)

Interesting... I actually never put it together before that if Sasha had finished anywhere in the Top 3 in the LP, Michelle would have finished off the podium.

My other bother was that I always thought Sarah Hughes really should have had a 5th place finish behind Maria Butyrskaya in the SP.

Just to reminisce...


1 KWAN Michelle USA 0.5
5.8 5.7 5.9 5.7 5.5 5.7 5.7 5.7 5.6 #15
5.9 5.9 5.9 5.9 5.9 5.9 5.9 5.9 5.9
11.7 11.6 11.8 11.6 11.4 11.6 11.6 11.6 11.5
--1---2---1---1---1---2---2---2---1

2 SLUTSKAYA Irina RUS 1.0
5.8 5.8 5.8 5.7 5.6 5.8 5.8 5.8 5.7 #13
5.7 5.8 5.9 5.8 5.6 5.8 5.9 5.8 5.6
11.5 11.6 11.7 11.5 11.2 11.6 11.7 11.6 11.3
--3---1---2---2---3---1---1---1---3

3 COHEN Sasha USA 1.5
5.8 5.6 5.7 5.5 5.6 5.6 5.7 5.7 5.6 #6
5.8 5.7 5.8 5.6 5.7 5.8 5.8 5.8 5.8
11.6 11.3 11.5 11.1 11.3 11.4 11.5 11.5 11.4
--2---4---3---4---2---4---3---3---2

4 HUGHES Sarah USA 2.0
5.2 5.1 5.6 5.3 5.3 5.5 5.2 5.6 5.5 #5
5.7 5.5 5.7 5.5 5.5 5.7 5.6 5.7 5.7
10.9 10.6 11.3 10.8 10.8 11.2 10.8 11.3 11.2
--6--10--4---5---5---5---5---4---4

5 BUTYRSKAYA Maria RUS 2.5
5.2 5.7 5.5 5.6 5.0 5.7 5.4 5.4 5.4 #12
5.6 5.8 5.6 5.8 5.6 5.7 5.5 5.6 5.5
10.8 11.5 11.1 11.4 10.6 11.4 10.9 11.0 10.9
--8---3---6---3---6---3---4---6---6

I always found it sad looking at those ordinals that Sarah beat out Maria... Sarah doesn't have a single ordinal in the top 3, while Maria has 3. Maria's TPiF (Total Points in Favor) was also greater than Sarah's (Maria with 396 and Sarah 390, but it happens/ed). I always imagined this angering the Russian's the most for Irina's loss for the gold, because a Sarah in 5th place after the SP would only be able to get a silver medal (given the same results on the LP) with a first place finish, receiving a 3.5 total (edging out Michelle on the tie), compared to Irina's 2-2 placement giving her a 3.0 and getting the gold.

Still rather ironically for poor Sasha, even if Sarah placed 5th in the SP, it would have made no difference... Sarah would have had to place 4th in the LP for Sasha to medal.

/end boring post

Unfortunate for Sasha fans, that's the way it was in SLC. She missed the podium, and as I recall, expectations were high for her to win. Not unlike Nagano. C'est las vie.

Before SLC, when did Sasha EVER complete a clean 3/3 or not make a mistake in her LP's? AFTER SLC when did she ever complete a clean 3/3? Once that I recall and that may have been 2footed. When did she ever complete a clean LP in competition after SLC? Ever??? All these false claims that Sasha could've won are just that: FALSE. That has always been part of the Sasha problem. She could never live up to the hype that surrounded her and it hurt her for her entire career. Sarah won and that's all there is to it. Both Irina and Michelle landed 3/3's consistently in their careers and could skate clean LP's. IF they all skated to potential Sasha still would've been off the podium. End. Of.Story.

Joesitz said:

Unfortunate for Sasha fans, that's the way it was in SLC. She missed the podium, and as I recall, expectations were high for her to win. Not unlike Nagano. C'est las vie.

Click to expand...

Well nobody was expecting her to medal, let alone win in SLC. In Torino yes, not SLC. it was her first major international event! Sasha never competed in Nagano. She was still a novice or a junior!

Check out the results of Skate Canada the very season (2001/2002) of Salt Lake Olympics.... it's not like the ladies' results were um... unprecedented....

Skate Canada 2002
1. Hughes
2. Slutskaya
3. Kwan

... with Hughes coming from behind after the short (fall I think)

Yes... I think it's all about the night of the event, who knows... but it's not like it was Jupiter colliding with Pluto never should happen kind of result...

Why don't we watch this night one more time?

The fluff...

http://youtube.com/watch?v=NdQosP1-ytQ

First up was Sarah Hughes...

http://youtube.com/watch?v=-2KYnyBI3JU

Julia Sebestyen

http://youtube.com/watch?v=2xn-Q-gCHZk

Sasha Cohen

http://youtube.com/watch?v=FfT_F68KWao

Maria Butyrskaya

http://youtube.com/watch?v=AGsgG8nNVdk

Michelle Kwan

http://youtube.com/watch?v=I_BFYZPuqEA

Irina Slutskaya

http://youtube.com/watch?v=7OZb9aaQ0kQ

I forget where in the order Maria skated, but, the rest of the girls are pretty much in a similar order as they skated that night.

Of course, the scream heard 'round the world-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UjiPhniDUk

And the medal ceremony-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fm9ar7Eau88

Fossi said:

Before SLC, when did Sasha EVER complete a clean 3/3 or not make a mistake in her LP's? AFTER SLC when did she ever complete a clean 3/3? Once that I recall and that may have been 2footed. When did she ever complete a clean LP in competition after SLC? Ever??? All these false claims that Sasha could've won are just that: FALSE. That has always been part of the Sasha problem. She could never live up to the hype that surrounded her and it hurt her for her entire career. Sarah won and that's all there is to it. Both Irina and Michelle landed 3/3's consistently in their careers and could skate clean LP's. IF they all skated to potential Sasha still would've been off the podium. End. Of.Story.

Click to expand...

Sasha did land a clean 3/3 at Worlds 2003 LP. Sasha also had clean LPs at 2000 CoR, 2003 Worlds QR, and 2004 Marshalls Cheesefest. End. Of. Story.

I think Fossi's point is that it never happened at a "major" competition, major meaning:
US Nationals
GP Final
Worlds
Olympics

The times you mentioned do not fall in any of those categories.

Oh, and Sasha's 3/3 was a sequence.

Tinymavy15 said:

Well nobody was expecting her to medal, let alone win in SLC. In Torino yes, not SLC. it was her first major international event! Sasha never competed in Nagano. She was still a novice or a junior!

Click to expand...

I don't think you were posting on the Board at that time. It was pure schaudenfreud(sp). Sasha fans were expecting it to be Sasha; Irina fans were expecting it to be Irina. Both sets of fans were Anyone But Kwan.

Ironically, it was Sarah. C'est la vie.

btw. Wasn't that the year that Sasha won some gold in the GPs?

kappa_1 said:

Sasha did land a clean 3/3 at Worlds 2003 LP. Sasha also had clean LPs at 2000 CoR, 2003 Worlds QR, and 2004 Marshalls Cheesefest. End. Of. Story.

Click to expand...

We were expecting a clean 3/3 in Worlds 03. She had landed it in Warm up (no one was conscious of underrotations then) but 2 footed it in the LP. It was never consistent. However, Sasha had a lot more to offer than 3x3s.

lcd said:

Check out the results of Skate Canada the very season (2001/2002) of Salt Lake Olympics.... it's not like the ladies' results were um... unprecedented....

Skate Canada 2002
1. Hughes
2. Slutskaya
3. Kwan

... with Hughes coming from behind after the short (fall I think)

Yes... I think it's all about the night of the event, who knows... but it's not like it was Jupiter colliding with Pluto never should happen kind of result...

Click to expand...

Still, Sarah's lucky stars were all in alignment.

Skate Canada was the first ond only senior skating event Sarah had ever won, except for the 1999 Vienna Cup.

Actually Sarah won the short program, with Kwan second and Skutskaya fourth. Slutskaya won the long program, but Sarah held on for second in the long and first overall. Michelle fell twice, in the aftermath of separating from her coach two weeks before and as the result of trying a triple flip-triple loop combination for the first time. It was the first time Michelle had finished lower than second in any figure skating event since 1996.

This result was somewhat ironic, because Sarah kind of lucked out at Skate Canada due to uncharacteristic mistakes by Slutskaya and Kwan, but on the other hand many people felt that she should have won Skate America in both 2001 and 2000, finishing second only because the judges held up Kwan.

What was truly exciting, to me, about Sarah's carreer was her two-years' battle with Maria Butyrskaya for the number three ranking. Sarah kept on coming, getting stronger and stronger, and eventually overtook Maria in the 2000-2001 season.

Is it just me or just the bad quality of youtube, but it really does look like Sarah Hughes cheats nearly every single one of her jumps. Even her opening double axel looks like she has completed 3/4 of a rotation before completely leaving the ice...

But regardless, my biggest qualm with the 2002 Olympics was the SP and how everyone just considers the LP as the definition of who should have won. In my honest opinion, I think Maria should have placed above Sarah (putting her in 5th after the SP) in the short.