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Thread: What If We Brought Back Compulsories...

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    What If We Brought Back Compulsories...

    I (along with many) was very happy to see Compulsory portion of singles skating thrown away way back when. However, now that we are in the era of COP, and everything being so technical, especially in terms of jumps, quality of skating has diminish in my opinion.

    No longer in programs do we see a real "moves in the field" anymore. Getting a single spread eagle is miracle. And do skaters really get credit for excellent "skating skills" and "edges" in the PCS?

    What would your opinion be if we did bring back figures after 2010 Olympics? And instead of Compulsory knocking down great overall skaters like Midori Ito and Denise Beilmann, let the portion be worth 25 Points Max for ladies for example. That should leave plenty of room for other skaters not strong in figures to make it up in the Short and Free Program, but still reward skaters with strong figures.

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    Trixie Schuba's biggest fan! blue dog's Avatar
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    Figures

    This was the "change of edge" in the lutz/flip thread, so thought I'd bring it here...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ginask8s View Post
    Loops are not as difficult to do when you are going slow. In footwork where you may be building up some speed, they become hard to control. Figures are done slowly and with control. There is no presentation or arm movements. For goodness sakes you are looking down at your pattern. I think figures done like we used to do them (hours a day) taught kids to look down which is a bad thing.
    Having said that, I could see some coaches having figures like ballet class. I think that could be useful. I dont think testing figures would be of any benefit. Also, when you are 8 they are pretty dull. .
    I agree with Geena. I think figures can be like the warmups in ballet, but if figures are to be taught, I wish they would teach them more like the way they're done in roller skating, and less like the way they are done on the ice. Compare the two:

    Ice Skating:
    http://youtube.com/watch?v=1rBlAG867DY

    Roller Skating
    http://youtube.com/watch?v=g4b-kLsBXn0

    The ice skaters have horrible form, compared to the roller skater.

    What benefits do you think figures will play in the role of today's skaters?

    Now in response to Tony's question--perhaps it is a good idea to bring back figures; but towards the end of when figures were being taught, as you can see, the form of the ice skaters became horrible. Todd Eldredge, considered a skater with great control and carriage had hunched shoulders and poor control in his figures:

    http://youtube.com/watch?v=YghJhwpCMNo
    Last edited by blue dog; 06-12-2008 at 06:47 PM.

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    The roller girl does have good form. Maybe if coaches concentrated on teaching the body position (who cares about the trace) the kids could get some real benefit. I think that is what the MIF are trying to do and I think as they get stricter on passing marks, the quality gets better.Also, there are lots of fun combos that coaches can make up for warm up. For instance, you can do xroll xroll followed by loop all the way down the rink.Forward backward inside outside. It s a great warm up. The problem is once kids pass the moves they dont continue to do them. Try counter power pull back inside loop switch feet. Its fun and useful for choreography.

    Figures cant really come back. Ice is too scarce and patch takes lots of time. Also, good coaching is not readily available for figures.

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    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ginask8s View Post
    Figures cant really come back. Ice is too scarce and patch takes lots of time.
    This is an excellent point, and one that is seldom mentioned in these discussions.

    There was a big article in the paper yesterday about the municiple rink in a nearby town which, for financial reasons, was forced to change it's fee schedule. The new fees made it impossible for the figure skating programs to continue. Only the hockey programs could afford it.

    The figure skating people have contacted the ACLU about a possible discrimination suit against the city, on the grounds that most of the figure skaters are girls and most of the hockey players are boys. The response of the city is, we're broke -- we can't subsidize programs any more that can't pay for themselves.
    Last edited by Mathman; 06-12-2008 at 09:45 PM.

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    Figures

    Having figures in the aforementioned format would be helpful. In today's skating it seems that those things like edging, spirals, and posture have gone by the wayside.

    I am not nostalgic for the days when Janet Lynn or Midori Ito were denied Gold Medals because of poor figures. I l just want balance. The time when someone, like Trixi Schuba, could win with figures alone are happily never to return. We don't want the present day gymnastics on ice either(I used to think the Bielmann spin was cool, now I want it banned since it's in EVERY ladies routine apprpriate to the skater or not)..

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    Beliver in Sasha's Perfect Program Tinymavy15's Avatar
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    if we are talking about figure, i really would not want to see them back. I would like to see a moves sequence instead of a second step sequence for the men, as well as scores given to ina bauers, spread eagles, spiral etc... not just stuffed into the components score.

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    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    When figure skating hit a void after Henie, the media went for figures and Barbara Ann Scott was the heroine. (She did have unbelieveable figures pictured in Life Magazine at the time. If you understand figures, Scott's tracings show up as one in the fotos after she completed 3 tracings. )

    As difficult and as sporting as they were, they did not sell to a public interested in seeing glitzy jumps and spins.

    As an example of their usefulness, I think for most skaters they may help a skater to avoid a wrong takeoff. A skater knows when he/she has a wrong takeoff. The skater must learn to control the jumping edge. Some never learn that control. Would figures help? Not sure. There could other circumstances.

    Joe

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    Rinkside
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    If they were brought back, I think it would be another opportunity for the judges to play favorites, although it may improve the edge quality of the skating and reduce the time dedicated to jumping. However, it would be interesting to see how new technology could be applied to figures.

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    and... World Peace! Tonichelle's Avatar
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    I don't think the CoP killed skaters edges, teh death of figures was already doing that, we're just seeing the generation with no figures background come into the limelight so it's more pronounced.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    As an example of their usefulness, I think for most skaters they may help a skater to avoid a wrong takeoff. A skater knows when he/she has a wrong takeoff. The skater must learn to control the jumping edge. Some never learn that control. Would figures help? Not sure. There could other circumstances.
    I think Urmanov made a good point about figures in an interview once. He said that some skaters just have a natural talent, and have the necessary control for the difficult elements. The rest, however, tend to do them wrong, and get injured in the process. His point was that learning figures helped avoid some of those mistakes.

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    Instead of having them added to the singles events..............why not have a separate competition. People could enter both or only one......there'd be more medals and another Olympic event. I realize that the figures would not draw big crowds but I'd certainly rather watch figures than archery or target shooting which are Oly events.....................

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    Beliver in Sasha's Perfect Program Tinymavy15's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tonichelle View Post
    I don't think the CoP killed skaters edges, teh death of figures was already doing that, we're just seeing the generation with no figures background come into the limelight so it's more pronounced.
    Right. all the skaters we are seeing competing under CoP already have passed all moves tests probably before the new system. The fact is that if you want to get to nationals before you are 16, you cant spend that much tim eon skating skills. The MITF tests alone take hours of skaters time and effort.

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    Trixie Schuba's biggest fan! blue dog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Winnipeg View Post
    Instead of having them added to the singles events..............why not have a separate competition. People could enter both or only one......there'd be more medals and another Olympic event. I realize that the figures would not draw big crowds but I'd certainly rather watch figures than archery or target shooting which are Oly events.....................
    It would be like rollerskating, where they have figures, free, and combined.

    Combined is like gymnastics all-around, but it's frustrating, because they only take the top 8 after figures and SP into the LP.

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    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blue dog View Post
    It would be like rollerskating, where they have figures, free, and combined.

    Combined is like gymnastics all-around, but it's frustrating, because they only take the top 8 after figures and SP into the LP.
    I don't believe Roller Skating Competitions care about all those mothers and fathers that their daughters skate the LP. The Sport is to find out who earned a position on the Podium, and eliminations are a must to simplify that.

    When you think of it, has anyone in ice skating landing in 30th place after the SP ever got on the podium after their LP? Have they ever gotten scores high enough after their LP to say " they were third in the LP?" Has a full house of spectatlors ever shown up for the morning LPs? Only fan-atics, like me show up.

    I think rollers may have a cut-off in the scoring that says 'no way can a skater's LP bring this skater up to the Podium. (Just a guess). That's the Sport to give out 3 medals to the Podium finishers.

    Joe

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    Trixie Schuba's biggest fan! blue dog's Avatar
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    Well, Joe, with the new system, we've seen how people can climb up the standings dramatically. If the top-8 only system were employed on the ice, Kurt Browning and Viktor Petrenko certainly wouldn't have finished in the top five in Lillehammer...Evan Lysacek wouldn't have been able to pull up into 4th after the SP in Torino, and so on, and so on...

    Since you're a fanatic, you of all people should know it ain't over till it's over. The top 8 may be skating for medals, but let the rest of the skaters that made the cutoff skate for pride.

    But BACK to the topic--what else can figures improve? Judging from what I saw in those videos, ice skaters who did figures towards the end had really bad form. Perhaps they just stopped caring--the same way the judges in the 2004 Worlds were giving away 6.0's, but I didn't see especially good posture. The foot position seemed wild at times, and almost all the skaters stopped at the top of the loop. If figures are brought back, the judges must not be afraid of marking people down for poor posture, control, etc.

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