What If We Brought Back Compulsories...

TtonyV7 · Jun 12, 2008

I (along with many) was very happy to see Compulsory portion of singles skating thrown away way back when. However, now that we are in the era of COP, and everything being so technical, especially in terms of jumps, quality of skating has diminish in my opinion.

No longer in programs do we see a real "moves in the field" anymore. Getting a single spread eagle is miracle. And do skaters really get credit for excellent "skating skills" and "edges" in the PCS?

What would your opinion be if we did bring back figures after 2010 Olympics? And instead of Compulsory knocking down great overall skaters like Midori Ito and Denise Beilmann, let the portion be worth 25 Points Max for ladies for example. That should leave plenty of room for other skaters not strong in figures to make it up in the Short and Free Program, but still reward skaters with strong figures.

blue dog · Jun 12, 2008

Figures

This was the "change of edge" in the lutz/flip thread, so thought I'd bring it here...

Ginask8s said:
Loops are not as difficult to do when you are going slow. In footwork where you may be building up some speed, they become hard to control. Figures are done slowly and with control. There is no presentation or arm movements. For goodness sakes you are looking down at your pattern. I think figures done like we used to do them (hours a day) taught kids to look down which is a bad thing.
Having said that, I could see some coaches having figures like ballet class. I think that could be useful. I dont think testing figures would be of any benefit. Also, when you are 8 they are pretty dull. .

I agree with Geena. I think figures can be like the warmups in ballet, but if figures are to be taught, I wish they would teach them more like the way they're done in roller skating, and less like the way they are done on the ice. Compare the two:

Ice Skating:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=1rBlAG867DY

Roller Skating
http://youtube.com/watch?v=g4b-kLsBXn0

The ice skaters have horrible form, compared to the roller skater.

What benefits do you think figures will play in the role of today's skaters?

Now in response to Tony's question--perhaps it is a good idea to bring back figures; but towards the end of when figures were being taught, as you can see, the form of the ice skaters became horrible. Todd Eldredge, considered a skater with great control and carriage had hunched shoulders and poor control in his figures:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=YghJhwpCMNo

Ginask8s · Jun 12, 2008

The roller girl does have good form. Maybe if coaches concentrated on teaching the body position (who cares about the trace) the kids could get some real benefit. I think that is what the MIF are trying to do and I think as they get stricter on passing marks, the quality gets better.Also, there are lots of fun combos that coaches can make up for warm up. For instance, you can do xroll xroll followed by loop all the way down the rink.Forward backward inside outside. It s a great warm up. The problem is once kids pass the moves they dont continue to do them. Try counter power pull back inside loop switch feet. Its fun and useful for choreography.

Figures cant really come back. Ice is too scarce and patch takes lots of time. Also, good coaching is not readily available for figures.

Mathman · Jun 12, 2008

Ginask8s said:
Figures cant really come back. Ice is too scarce and patch takes lots of time.

This is an excellent point, and one that is seldom mentioned in these discussions.

There was a big article in the paper yesterday about the municiple rink in a nearby town which, for financial reasons, was forced to change it's fee schedule. The new fees made it impossible for the figure skating programs to continue. Only the hockey programs could afford it.

The figure skating people have contacted the ACLU about a possible discrimination suit against the city, on the grounds that most of the figure skaters are girls and most of the hockey players are boys. The response of the city is, we're broke -- we can't subsidize programs any more that can't pay for themselves.

alicelouise · Jun 12, 2008

Figures

Having figures in the aforementioned format would be helpful. In today's skating it seems that those things like edging, spirals, and posture have gone by the wayside.

I am not nostalgic for the days when Janet Lynn or Midori Ito were denied Gold Medals because of poor figures. I l just want balance. The time when someone, like Trixi Schuba, could win with figures alone are happily never to return. We don't want the present day gymnastics on ice either(I used to think the Bielmann spin was cool, now I want it banned since it's in EVERY ladies routine apprpriate to the skater or not)..

Tinymavy15 · Jun 12, 2008

if we are talking about figure, i really would not want to see them back. I would like to see a moves sequence instead of a second step sequence for the men, as well as scores given to ina bauers, spread eagles, spiral etc... not just stuffed into the components score.

Joesitz (RIP) · Jun 13, 2008

When figure skating hit a void after Henie, the media went for figures and Barbara Ann Scott was the heroine. (She did have unbelieveable figures pictured in Life Magazine at the time. If you understand figures, Scott's tracings show up as one in the fotos after she completed 3 tracings. :bow:

)

As difficult and as sporting as they were, they did not sell to a public interested in seeing glitzy jumps and spins.

As an example of their usefulness, I think for most skaters they may help a skater to avoid a wrong takeoff. A skater knows when he/she has a wrong takeoff. The skater must learn to control the jumping edge. Some never learn that control. Would figures help? Not sure. There could other circumstances.

Joe

StickyFumblings · Jun 13, 2008

If they were brought back, I think it would be another opportunity for the judges to play favorites, although it may improve the edge quality of the skating and reduce the time dedicated to jumping. However, it would be interesting to see how new technology could be applied to figures.

Tonichelle · Jun 13, 2008

I don't think the CoP killed skaters edges, teh death of figures was already doing that, we're just seeing the generation with no figures background come into the limelight so it's more pronounced.

Ptichka · Jun 13, 2008

Joesitz said:
As an example of their usefulness, I think for most skaters they may help a skater to avoid a wrong takeoff. A skater knows when he/she has a wrong takeoff. The skater must learn to control the jumping edge. Some never learn that control. Would figures help? Not sure. There could other circumstances.

I think Urmanov made a good point about figures in an interview once. He said that some skaters just have a natural talent, and have the necessary control for the difficult elements. The rest, however, tend to do them wrong, and get injured in the process. His point was that learning figures helped avoid some of those mistakes.

Winnipeg · Jun 13, 2008

Instead of having them added to the singles events..............why not have a separate competition. People could enter both or only one......there'd be more medals and another Olympic event. I realize that the figures would not draw big crowds but I'd certainly rather watch figures than archery or target shooting which are Oly events.....................

Tinymavy15 · Jun 13, 2008

Tonichelle said:
I don't think the CoP killed skaters edges, teh death of figures was already doing that, we're just seeing the generation with no figures background come into the limelight so it's more pronounced.

Right. all the skaters we are seeing competing under CoP already have passed all moves tests probably before the new system. The fact is that if you want to get to nationals before you are 16, you cant spend that much tim eon skating skills. The MITF tests alone take hours of skaters time and effort.

blue dog · Jun 13, 2008

Winnipeg said:
Instead of having them added to the singles events..............why not have a separate competition. People could enter both or only one......there'd be more medals and another Olympic event. I realize that the figures would not draw big crowds but I'd certainly rather watch figures than archery or target shooting which are Oly events.....................

It would be like rollerskating, where they have figures, free, and combined.

Combined is like gymnastics all-around, but it's frustrating, because they only take the top 8 after figures and SP into the LP.

Joesitz (RIP) · Jun 13, 2008

blue dog said:
It would be like rollerskating, where they have figures, free, and combined.

Combined is like gymnastics all-around, but it's frustrating, because they only take the top 8 after figures and SP into the LP.

I don't believe Roller Skating Competitions care about all those mothers and fathers that their daughters skate the LP. The Sport is to find out who earned a position on the Podium, and eliminations are a must to simplify that.

When you think of it, has anyone in ice skating landing in 30th place after the SP ever got on the podium after their LP? Have they ever gotten scores high enough after their LP to say " they were third in the LP?" Has a full house of spectatlors ever shown up for the morning LPs? Only fan-atics, like me show up.

I think rollers may have a cut-off in the scoring that says 'no way can a skater's LP bring this skater up to the Podium. (Just a guess). That's the Sport to give out 3 medals to the Podium finishers.

Joe

blue dog · Jun 13, 2008

Well, Joe, with the new system, we've seen how people can climb up the standings dramatically. If the top-8 only system were employed on the ice, Kurt Browning and Viktor Petrenko certainly wouldn't have finished in the top five in Lillehammer...Evan Lysacek wouldn't have been able to pull up into 4th after the SP in Torino, and so on, and so on...

Since you're a fanatic, you of all people should know it ain't over till it's over. The top 8 may be skating for medals, but let the rest of the skaters that made the cutoff skate for pride.

But BACK to the topic--what else can figures improve? Judging from what I saw in those videos, ice skaters who did figures towards the end had really bad form. Perhaps they just stopped caring--the same way the judges in the 2004 Worlds were giving away 6.0's, but I didn't see especially good posture. The foot position seemed wild at times, and almost all the skaters stopped at the top of the loop. If figures are brought back, the judges must not be afraid of marking people down for poor posture, control, etc.

Joesitz (RIP) · Jun 13, 2008

Much of what you say, blue dog, is absolutely true, and I am not trying to use the elimintion process that Rollers does. I think if Mathman could work on this we could show a likely cut off from the results of the SPs of skaters who can not possibly move up to the podium even if the scores are high.

I am one of those fanactics who will watch skaters in 16th-30th place do their LPs. I think everytime I've watched, I noticed that there are one or two who should have been in the top 15. After the results are shown, the one or two do wind up in the top 15 but no where near the podium. It is nice for them to see that they are in the better half of the competition.

You have to realize to move up places in a comp, one needs to have some of the competitors have a melt down (It's just not enough to be sensational suddenly.) It's a huge wishful thinking that the top 10 skaters up front are having a melt down. At some point the podium for most skaters is not reachable.

I see you as being politically correct, and me as a crazy fan. Both of us caring for the underdos.

Joe

Tinymavy15 · Jun 13, 2008

I do not get the controversy about eliminating skaters how do not place in the top 18 or so after the first round. The gold medal should be given to the skater with the best long and short programs, not the best final round. and yeah, there have been great combacks with CoP, but i never saw a skater move up from 25th to skate well enough to place 10th.

Medusa · Jun 13, 2008

Tinymavy15 said:
but i never saw a skater move up from 25th to skate well enough to place 10th.

Lepistö was 21st after the short program at Worlds and moved up to 8th with the 7th best freeskate. That was one hell of a comeback. :clap:

dorispulaski · Jun 14, 2008

http://youtube.com/watch?v=aTDLjhTUMbA

If we're going to look at figures, here's the best ever, Trixie Schuba. Check out how deep and crisp her tracings are, not to mention her carriage is good. Janet Lynn, shown later on the vid, not so much.

I would like to see figures a separate event at Olympics again!

However, the ISU (being pushed by the Olympic committee) is trying to get away from a 3 event dance event by eliminating compulsory dances.

gsrossano · Jun 18, 2008

Winnipeg said:
Instead of having them added to the singles events..............why not have a separate competition. People could enter both or only one......there'd be more medals and another Olympic event. I realize that the figures would not draw big crowds but I'd certainly rather watch figures than archery or target shooting which are Oly events.....................

After the ISU eliminated figures, the US kept them as a separate competition. The number of competitors was limited and after a few years they were dropped from competition. USFSA still offers figure tests for the handful of skaters who still do them.

The problem ultimately is money. For a full patch session, a rink would have to charge at least $15 per hour. At half full, $30. To be good at it requires at least an hour a day. In the old days skaters might have spent two hours a day on figures.

Then there is competition. A typical club competition has about 10-12 starts an hour depending on the level. That says the cost of an hour of ice is spread among ten entry fees. If you went back to competition with three figures judged the old way, those three figures would take about 12 minutes -- about 5 starts per hour and nearly double the ice cost.

So even if their was demand to have such competition the economics just kills it.

What If We Brought Back Compulsories...

TtonyV7

blue dog

Trixie Schuba's biggest fan!

Ginask8s

Mathman

alicelouise

Tinymavy15

Sinnerman for the win

Joesitz (RIP)

StickyFumblings

Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll

Ptichka

Forum translator

Winnipeg

Tinymavy15

Sinnerman for the win

blue dog

Trixie Schuba's biggest fan!

Joesitz (RIP)

blue dog

Trixie Schuba's biggest fan!

Joesitz (RIP)

Tinymavy15

Sinnerman for the win

Medusa

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl

gsrossano

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