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Thread: ISU Congress- Decisions bring new rules

  1. #31
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by merrybari View Post
    How are the judges chosen for each event in the first place? Do federations "offer" to send them? Are they chosen - randomly - by the ISU?
    I think it goes something like this. All the federations who have qualified judges participate in a random draw conducted by the ISU. That is, the draw determines which federations will send a judge. The choice of the actual individual is then made by the federation (that's one reason why the judges have to stay on the good side of the federation bosses.)

    That having been said, if the draw is truly "random," it is amazing how often the most powerful federations get lucky.
    Quote Originally Posted by Merrybari
    Who pays their expenses?
    I believe that the ISU pays the judges a nominal expense allowance, but the judges are volunteers who do not get a "salary" or anything like that.
    Every federation should always be represented on the judging panel, but I know that sometimes is not the case.
    There are about 70 member federations in the ISU. I am not sure how many have qualified judges, but a lot do. So it is not possible for every federation to have a judge on the 12-judge panel.
    Another thought - have the judges be independent of/from the federations.
    There is quite a lot of strong feeling about that. I believe that Mr. Cinquanta would like nothing better than to take the judging power out of the federations' hands and put it in his own. This is what was behind the decision to make the technical specialists chosen directly by the ISU and not the member federations. At competitions, every year the tech specialist gets more power and the judges less.

    The reason that Cinquanta can't move too quickly in this direction is that the ISU is an association of national federations. The federations vote Cinquqanta into his position and can fire him if they don't like what he is doing. So he can't assert the central authority of the ISU administration over the federations too vigorously.

    OT -- By the way, there is a rumor going around the boards that Cinquanta will be voted off the International Olympic Committee in August and replaced by the head of the world hockey association.
    Last edited by Mathman; 06-23-2008 at 08:50 AM.

  2. #32
    Custom Title fumie_fumie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    OT -- By the way, there is a rumor going around the boards that Cinquanta will be voted off the International Olympic Committee in August and replaced by the head of the world hockey association.
    The hockey song came to my mind:

    Oh! The good old hockey game,
    Is the best game you can name;
    And the best game you can name,
    Is the good old Hockey game!


  3. #33
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    Thanks for the clarification, mathman.

    Obviously not possible for every federation to be represented as there are so many. I hadn't realized.

    Not sure if Cinquanto should have the power in his hands so to speak, but it seems possible that the judges could be part of a regional/sectional/larger group pool somehow that would dilute the "authority" of the home federation to exert pressure. Then the mid-level group/federeation, whatever, would have intermediary authority to choose the judges.

    Course there are pitfalls to this as with any system - corruption and collusion can be part of any attempt to "fix" this. This could be debated 'til h**l freezes over - and no doubt has been - without any changes that really are workable as long as bias prevails.

    Let the skaters skate!! I don't envy them being caught in the middle or at the apex of all this politicking. It's their careers and futures that are at the mercy of all the politics. Too sad.

  4. #34
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    I guess 'qualified judges' mean they are specialists in a particular discipline. So let the judges from countries you never see on the panel be on the one that they are specialist in. Come to think of it, has there ever been a Swiss judge on a panel? Yet one does see Danish very often.

    What would happen if a judge from a country which has a high ranking ISU skater in a competition. Wouldn't it be wonderful to see a judge's panel like: Andorra, Luxembourg, Lithuania, Thailand, India, New Zealand, Mexico, S.Africa, Puerto Rico. I am sure they are all capable of honest judging and it would not be necessary to hide their scores.

    Interesting rumor about Cinquanta being usurped by Hockey and will take a back seat at the Olys. I really can't grasp that rumor.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    Wouldn't it be wonderful to see a judge's panel like: Andorra, Luxembourg, Lithuania, Thailand, India, New Zealand, Mexico, S.Africa, Puerto Rico. I am sure they are all capable of honest judging and it would not be necessary to hide their scores.
    Now there's a thought.

  6. #36
    Custom Title antmanb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    That's exactly what I was thinking when I brought this up. There is no more 12 judges with only 9 being used for scoring, A substitute could be one of the 3 being dropped. However, it didn't happen. They cut the 12 to 10 so it helps a Federation who is able to get assistance from like minded other Federations if his abettors are included in the 10.- less possible chance to be 'dropped'

    This is all so silly. Just name the judges and their scores and let the media and fans make hay of it.

    Joe
    Totally agreed

    Ant

  7. #37
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Here is the list of all the countries that have qualified ISU judges, International judges (they can judge lesser contests, but not Worlds, etc.), referees and technical specialists in each discipline.

    http://isu.sportcentric.net/db//files/serve.php?id=662

    If a country only has only one or two qualified judges, sometimes they decline to participate in the draw.

    Here, as an example, is how the draw went for ISU championships last year.

    http://isu.sportcentric.net/db//files/serve.php?id=712

    One aspect of the system that has been heavily criticized is that a country (read Russsia) which has lots of ISU judges can "loan" judges to countries that don't have any. That's why you see so many folks judging for former soviet SSRs and other eastern European countries who are still part of the Russian figure skating fraternity.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Here is the list of all the countries that have qualified ISU judges, International judges (they can judge lesser contests, but not Worlds, etc.),
    ISU judges can judge the Olympics and ISU Championships -- Worlds, Europeans, Four Continents and Junior Worlds.
    International judges can judge Senior and Junior Grand Prix events, Senior Bs, junior and novice internationals, etc.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post

    One aspect of the system that has been heavily criticized is that a country (read Russsia) which has lots of ISU judges can "loan" judges to countries that don't have any. That's why you see so many folks judging for former soviet SSRs and other eastern European countries who are still part of the Russian figure skating fraternity.
    Thanks for the links.

    And frankly, the idea of "loaning" judges reeks!! :banging:

  10. #40
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by merrybari View Post

    And frankly, the idea of "loaning" judges reeks!! :banging:
    And you therefore understand why one particular Federation wants to keep secret judging.

    Why can't there be another vote on secret judging?

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    And you therefore understand why one particular Federation wants to keep secret judging.

    Why can't there be another vote on secret judging?

    Yep! That explains it.

    I'm for another vote, as are most die-hard fans. A vote to ban secret judging would bring credibility to the sport in the eyes of the general "masses" thereby, IMO, attracting prospective fans who remain dubious to it's validity as a sport. Seems like a no brainer that the "powers that be" choose to view with a blind eye.

    Are we back where we started? :banging: This gives me a headache!!

  12. #42
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Here is the official announcement of what was actually passed at the congress.

    http://isu.sportcentric.net/db//files/serve.php?id=980

    The last change is interesting.

    For edge calls on Lutzes and flips, the tech specialist will call "e" in the case of a very long and severe wrong edge. In that case the judges must give a -1 to -3 GOE on the element.

    In the case of a shorter or less obvious wrong edge, the tech specialist will use a new symbol, "!" instead of "e." In this case the judges will use their discretion about how to factor the wrong edge into their GOE score.

    To me, this last thing is redundant. The judges can "use their discretion" about bad edges whether the tech specialist calls anything or not.

    If anything, I would rather something like this to be used for underroations. A downgrade for an egregious underrotaion and something to call the judges' attention to an milder underroation, short of a downgrade.
    Last edited by Mathman; 07-02-2008 at 06:44 AM.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Here is the official announcement of what was actually passed at the congress.

    http://isu.sportcentric.net/db//files/serve.php?id=980

    To me, this last thing is redundant. The judges can "use their discretion" about bad edges whether the tech specialist calls anything or not.

    If anything, I would rather something like this to be used for underroations. A downgrade for an egregious underrotaion and something to call the judges' attention to an milder underroation, short of a downgrade.
    Thanks for the link. So they've eliminated a spin for senior men & ladies. Nice to have that cleared up as I'd heard spin, jump or step sequence.

    Makes the most sense to me. Must say I'm glad it wasn't a step sequence which to me adds variety and expression.


    ITA re: under-rotations v. edge calls!

    Was the old time before starting program 2 minutes?
    Last edited by merrybari; 07-02-2008 at 07:01 AM.

  14. #44
    Forum translator Ptichka's Avatar
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    Judging is only one aspect of the problems of ISU being really about federations, not the skaters. Skaters as such have zero rights within ISU, only federations have rights. For example, if a federation (for whatever reason) decides to end a skater's eligible career, it may do so even if they are a champion of everything. This benefits federations, but not the sport in general. However, I guess since it's the federations that pay (in theory) to create skaters, it's them that get to call the shots... And, of course, that's how we end up with superb skaters from skating powerhouses such as Russia, US, or Japan not being able to skate at Worlds because the team is already filled, yet have countries such as Azerbaijan send their skaters there anyway...

  15. #45
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    Not quite fair to single out Azerbaijan. They sent only one man and one dance team to Worlds, and the dance team IS world class (even though neither partner has ever set foot in AZE).

    OTOH, Uzbekistan sent dreadful Pair and Dance teams to 2008 Worlds, and Gizmo barely made the cut for the FS. BLR has one good male skater (Davydov), but their ladies and dance teams rarely make it to the final segment.

    The really galling thing is somehow the 'loaned' judges to these 3 federations often seem to be seated on important judging panels.

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