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Thread: Sometimes I wish more was added to CoP

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    it's olympic season :D bethissoawesome's Avatar
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    Lightbulb Sometimes I wish more was added to CoP

    Sometimes I wish there was a bit more added to the Program Components section of CoP that would take the Technical Score elements into general consideration. Instead of just judging each individual technical skill that is presented, I think they should be taking into consideration as a whole. For example, jumping. Instead of getting x amount of points for x jumps and the corresponding GOE, I think there should be a mark in the Program Components that takes all of the jumps into consideration, not just a case by case basis.

    For example:
    -How full was the skater's arsenal of jumps? (To help make up for skaters that can complete all 5 basic triples, something fantastic, but wind up at a disadvantage to a skater like Mao who has a 3A, but no 3T and 3S)
    -The skater's general position in the air
    -Tightness of rotations
    -Lack of or use of cheats to complete jumps
    -Fluidity in entering and exiting the jump
    ... You could use these 5 criteria, assigning a value of two points to each criterion... the only jumps taken into account for scoring are COMPLETED jumps... and each incompleted jump deducts 1 from the score.

    I'd love to see that to help boost skaters that don't just try to milk the systerm for every possible point on Tech's and sacrifice other aspects of the sport for not garnering enough points. And not only just for jumps, spins and footwork/spiral segments as well. So 3 additional criteria added to Program Components, making the score more important than Techs... which would effectively put the emphasis on the completeness of the skater, not the tricks they are performing.

    Just my 2 cents LOL.
    Last edited by bethissoawesome; 06-29-2008 at 12:36 AM.

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    I'm not very fond of the idea. To begin with, the judging controversies can be pretty severe now, when everything's on paper. I can't imagine how bad they would get when the judges would have to rely on their purely subjective sense of "wholeness". Tastes differ, and what one person might perceive as a complete perfection, another might see as underwhelming.
    Just comparing the programs would be a nightmare, IMHO.

    To follow, as a (low lovel) skater myself I think that CoP already awards "wholeness". Simply, the better the quality of your elements and the more of ther you are comfortable doing, the better you score. Jeff, who has no 4T, but full set of jumps, great footwork, superb spins, amazing transitions and great programs was able to win over Brian, who had big tricks, but neglected other areas of his skating... And I think this is how it should be.

    Personally I agree with what some ballet coach said; first you need to get a perfect technique, when you have that, you can fully concentrate on freedom and beauty of the movement. I think that right now CoP helps skaters to notice what can be improved.

    There are things about CoP that make me LIVID, but not the jump judging. I'm more annoyed by too quickly introduced changes, too light punishment on messing up the jump (fall, hand down, step-out) in comparison to UR calls, new spiral requirements which killed CoE arabesque, no points for an illusion spin... >:(

    I'd love to see that to help boost skaters that don't just try to milk the systerm for every possible point on Tech's and sacrifice other aspects of the sport for not garnering enough points.
    I don't really agree with you here. I don't see many skaters who go for big tricks and give up on the rest... In fact, I don't see all that much skaters with "big tricks" at all!
    There are only two women who attempt 3A, and they were landing it already during 6.0 era. The current men World Champion is quadless, and Junior Men Champion didn't even attempt 3A! In fact, there are many skaters who don't even have a full arsenal of triples yet, but place fairly well because of their artistry, cleanness and overall skating quality, like Laura Lepisto or Nana Takeda.
    IMHO during the 6.0 era there was actually much more skaters who went for big tricks, but saved stamina on spins and transitions.

    Quote Originally Posted by bethissoawesome View Post
    :
    -How full was the skater's arsenal of jumps? (To help make up for skaters that can complete all 7 triples, something fantastic, but wind up at a disadvantage to a skater like Mao who has a 3A, but no 3T and 3S)
    1. There is only 5 triples, 6 including 3A.
    2. Mao's been doing 3T for 2 seasons, in the latest quite consistently. And she got her 3S back this off-season.
    3. Just the 3A didn't give Mao that much advantage. Yukari's doing 3A this season and she still cannot challenge Mao. It's Mao's overall skating quality, 3-3s, the ability to put difficult combos in the 2nd half AND 3A that she has advantage over other skaters. There were competitions where she did not complete 3A and still won.

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    Whatever CoP needs, it isn't MORE technicality. People are always going to milk the system no matter what rules you set up. CoP did improve some things, but is still fundamentally flawed as long as artistry is relegated to as low of a level as it is now. Yes, I still think the treatment is worse than the disease...

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    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Some of the details of the present PCS are confusing enough. Just one, for example is the Choreography score.

    1. When looking at the protocols, is it clear who is doing the choreography - the skater or the choreographer the skater hired to do it? or

    2. Are we judging the skater's ability to skate whatever choreograhy was shown? It seems to me, that is covered in so many othe components.

    3. Are financially challenged skaters able to hire a first-class skating choreography? If not, then there is handicapping here.

    4. If a first-class skater with a first-class choreographer has a melt down (and we've seen that happen many times) does it affect the choreography mark which in an earlier competition was considered excelllent?

    Other gems in that line up of components, e.g., Skating Ability is also easily questioned. If an excellent skater proven by past competitions has excellent skating abilities, why judge that skater for a few boo boos? Example: a Pairs Team has a less than average skate THAT night and another rises to the occasion with a clean excellent skate. Who should get the higher scores?

    and so on and so on.

    Maybe the roar of the crowd should give the skater(s) the 30 per cent of the PCS scores.

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    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    ^ Those are excellent points, IMO, especially #4. A skater might fall on every jump tonight, but the "choreography" is the same as it was last time when she skated perfectly. Does she deserve the same marks in this category?

    About the roar of the crowd, actually that is mentioned, sort of, in the program comonent "Performance/Execution." The skater is expected to establish an "invisible bond with the audience." Presumably the audience can help the judges out by clapping vigorously to show that said bond has been established.

    To tell the truth, I kind of like that criterion (except that it unduly favors the hometown hero.)

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    it's olympic season :D bethissoawesome's Avatar
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    Sorry, typo-ed before.

    I guess the point that I am trying to get across is that there should be some sort of boost to well-rounded skaters that have worked on and perfected all levels of, **to simplify I'll just call them "tricks" (jumps, spins, footwork/spiral sequences... the things graded in TES)** tricks and can consistently demonstrate them. I know my idea is not the solutioin, and there probably is no perfect solution.. but it would be nice to see skaters start focusing on being well-rounded again and not just simply focusing on the tricks that will bring them the most points.

    I wish there could be a way for this well-roundedness in the technical aspect that boosts the skaters, in the same way having (example) solid skating skills in the PCS, so that there is more motivation outside of the personal motivation to keep improving the basics.

    Hehe... if I had it my way, I would love to see an additional preliminary round in which all the skaters skate the same program, consisting of both the very easy abd basic tricks as well as the more difficult, and then are assessed on their "completeness" as a skater in those aspects.

    (I'm not exactly sure if I'm making sense here or getting my point across... haven't slept in 48 hours)

    As long as the CoP is in place, skating will always be a numbers game. I just wish there was a way, any way, for the system to encourage dedication to constantly improving all aspects, even the easy ones, not just perfecting an arsenal to garner the most points.

    Make sense?

    And I didn't mean to "pick" on Mao, I absolutely adore her and her talent... but I also remember the days when she was practicing her 4L instead of working on her 3T.

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    Custom Title bekalc's Avatar
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    Well the one thing I don't like about COP is that it doesn't reward people for 3/3's appropriately. For example Yu-na can do a 3lutz/3toe. But why should she? When it doesn't give her more points. That's what I don't like.

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    it's olympic season :D bethissoawesome's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bekalc View Post
    Well the one thing I don't like about COP is that it doesn't reward people for 3/3's appropriately. For example Yu-na can do a 3lutz/3toe. But why should she? When it doesn't give her more points. That's what I don't like.
    I also think that there should be a multiplier for combination jumps to bump up the value a bit. It would also probably help the variety of jumps in a program. For example, instead of a 3T-3T being worth 8 points, it would be worth a base of 9.2, so substituting something like the 3L-2L-2L (which is also worth 8) or the common 3Lutz-2T-2R (8.8 pts) would no longer work. Maybe 0.15 would be a fair multiplier (perhaps a bit inflated) for a 3-3 or 4-2, 0.20 for a 3-3-2 or 4-3, 0.25 for 3-3-3 or 4-3-2/4-2-2... perhaps even a 0.10 for a 3-2-2.

    I also don't like that doing jumps in a sequence (when it is on purpose) is penalized (Tara Lipinsky's final combination would have been penalized at the 1998 Olys!) If someone could do a 3Lutz - half loop - 3Flip, power to them! Why should they get a negative factor for pulling something like that off?

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    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    ^^^

    My feelings about the Technical is that amending it is not an impossibility. As long as those in power can take up a mattter, discuss it, and reach an agreeement, it will be done. Of course for the GoEs one has to accept the infalibity of the Tech Panel. So many posters see underrotations that the Panel doesn't. Only a slomo repeat of a jump can show how the decision was made. I think the fans deserve this.

    But the PCS scores which are all over the place and repeating each other sometimes in the Tech, should be dropped all together and a new and simplified method of Presentation be adopted. It's all so subjective, imo.

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    it's olympic season :D bethissoawesome's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    ^^^

    My feelings about the Technical is that amending it is not an impossibility. As long as those in power can take up a mattter, discuss it, and reach an agreeement, it will be done. Of course for the GoEs one has to accept the infalibity of the Tech Panel. So many posters see underrotations that the Panel doesn't. Only a slomo repeat of a jump can show how the decision was made. I think the fans deserve this.

    But the PCS scores which are all over the place and repeating each other sometimes in the Tech, should be dropped all together and a new and simplified method of Presentation be adopted. It's all so subjective, imo.
    Agreed on PCS being it subjective... especially in the way they are broken down. Something like choreography... in a way it can turn out like faulting a skater because they don't have as good as a choreographer as another. Maybe it would be nice to see PCS just based on the overall presentation of the entire performance (like the old presentation scores), and if they want to get nit-picky, they can add in overall presentation for the technical skills, and overall presentation disregarding technical skills. Bleh, who knows.

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    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    It seems like almost all the suggestions offered for making the CoP better come down to, make it more like 6.0 ordinal judging.

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    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bethissoawesome View Post
    Agreed on PCS being it subjective... especially in the way they are broken down. Something like choreography... in a way it can turn out like faulting a skater because they don't have as good as a choreographer as another. Maybe it would be nice to see PCS just based on the overall presentation of the entire performance (like the old presentation scores), and if they want to get nit-picky, they can add in overall presentation for the technical skills, and overall presentation disregarding technical skills. Bleh, who knows.
    Just a quick reminder, the Tech's GoEs are highly subjective to the Tech Panel, and also to the judges which now officially, ignore certain 'calls'. The 1-2-3 tacked on to a base value are subjective. Just looking at the protocols will tell you that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    It seems like almost all the suggestions offered for making the CoP better come down to, make it more like 6.0 ordinal judging.
    and let the judges be named. that'll shake them up when the roar of the crowd turns on them, although the toe tapper didn't seem to mind.

    Any socialogist knows that through environment not all people think the same way. Some are brought up in a 'cheating' environment, and that's what they know as normal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bekalc View Post
    Well the one thing I don't like about COP is that it doesn't reward people for 3/3's appropriately. For example Yu-na can do a 3lutz/3toe. But why should she? When it doesn't give her more points. That's what I don't like.
    True, but should Yu-Na risk falling on a 3l-3t when her 3f-3t is consistent? And I recall her falling on the lutz a couple of times this season. Points are part of it, but some skaters feel more comfortable with certain jumps over others. Oda does his combination with the lutz, and so does Miki, and Mirai (even with the flutz). I also recall Kostner doing her 3f-3t under 6.

    I don't think jump/combinations should be worth more than they already are (except for the 3a and quad which have already increased in value). A skater with a 3-3 already has a 4 point advantage over someone who doesn't have a 3-3, and a 8 point advantage overall (11 points if the skater can do two 3-3s).

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    it's olympic season :D bethissoawesome's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by indicatoto101 View Post
    True, but should Yu-Na risk falling on a 3l-3t when her 3f-3t is consistent? And I recall her falling on the lutz a couple of times this season. Points are part of it, but some skaters feel more comfortable with certain jumps over others. Oda does his combination with the lutz, and so does Miki, and Mirai (even with the flutz). I also recall Kostner doing her 3f-3t under 6.

    I don't think jump/combinations should be worth more than they already are (except for the 3a and quad which have already increased in value). A skater with a 3-3 already has a 4 point advantage over someone who doesn't have a 3-3, and a 8 point advantage overall (11 points if the skater can do two 3-3s).
    No, not quite true. If we are assuming combos here... example. the 3?-3T skater only has a 2.7 point advantage over the 3?-2T, and only a 2.5 point difference if the second jump is a Loop instead of Toeloopp. 2.7 and/or 2.5 points is NOT enough to make up for the difference between the difficulty of doing the 3-3 over the 3-2.

    Think of how many skaters can do a triple lutz-double toe/loop as opposed to how few can do a triple lutz-triple toe/loop combo. There should be more of a bonus.

    I think having a bonus of a multiplication factor of 1.1 is atleast fair, since that it what they offer for jumps after attempted after the halfway point in the LP. The triple-triple combo should atleast get the same respect (and additional point value) as a triple lutz tacked on to the end of a program.
    Last edited by bethissoawesome; 07-08-2008 at 07:09 PM.

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