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Thread: Double Axel in Both Directions

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    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Double Axel in Both Directions

    Who does Double Axels in both directions?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAdIn-NFKhc

  2. #2
    Sexy, smart and sterilized! childfreegirl's Avatar
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    When I read that, he's the only one that came to mind. I don't know of any other current or recent skater who does, although I believe that used to be more common years ago.

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    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Here's Stephane Lambiel in practice (although the landing on the second one isn't perfect.)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHb2RiofwCg

    Rohene Ward's performance is mesmerizing throughout.

    I can't help but feel that there is something fundamentally amiss with the sport of figure skating when a skater's exhibition programs are far and away better than his competitive programs. Scored by the CoP, Rohene's effort was a dud. Scored subjectively, it was a masterpiece.

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    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    For scoring puroses, I believe the two axels get the normal base value each.

    But is it counted as one jump or two against the limit of jump passes? I would think both jumps should be counted as one pass.

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    Beliver in Sasha's Perfect Program Tinymavy15's Avatar
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    Mr. Ward's performance was amazing... double axels included. It is for performances like that I miss 6.0!

    What a talent.

    a girl at my rink can do all her singles (including axel) in both directions very well and spins equally well in both directions.

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    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    If the two jumps are counted as a single jumping pass, then it is a jump sequence and it gets only 80% of the base value. So two double Axels in a row (worth 3.5 points each if done separately) give the skater only 5.6 points total as a sequence.

    Michelle Kwan had an exhibition number with COI in which she did four double Axels in a row (all the same way.) I think under CoP only three would count, and these would be discounted by the 80% factor.

    IIRC Carol Heiss (the first lady to do a double Axel) was famous for being able to do an extended sequence of single Axels, alternating directions. Heiss was sort of ambidextrous anyway because she mostly jumped clockwise but spun counterclockwise.

    Great thread, Joe!

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    Doubles? Certainly if one looks back into some of the golden age for the sport, I recall from excerpts on videos that Carol Heiss did big beautiful singles in both directions in her competitive programs,... and didn't Tenley Albright do so as well? It seems such a wonderful choreographic tool that gets completely overlooked today. There are switch hitters in baseball... why not more in skating?

    In the 70s, there was a Japanese Men's skater - Minoru Sano - who gave an amazing performance to capture a bronze at Worlds in 1977... when it was ... of course... in Tokyo. If I recall correctly, he did triples (toes?) in both directions during his free skate.

    Amongst current/more recent skater - Rohene Ward can readily do double axels in both directions - fun to watch... but I don't think he's put them in his programs.

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    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    A little bit OT, but while I was searching for videos of Carol Heiss, I ran across this write-up of junior men's skater Douglas Ramsey, from the 1961 U.S. championship.

    Sandra Loosemore writes:

    Next CBS showed Doug Ramsay from the Detroit Skating Club, who wound up finishing 4th and taking [Tim] Brown's place at North Americans and Worlds. Ramsay is probably best known to many people nowadays as the skater who beat Frank Carroll to win the 1960 US Junior title. "Skating" magazine reported about that event:

    "The culmination of the Junior Men's event on Friday night was an agonizing three-way tie in ordinal points between Douglas Ramsay, Bruce Heiss [brother of Carol and Nancy] and Frank Carroll. None of the skaters having a majority of first-place votes, Douglas Ramsay won a slim victory on subsequent majority, with a dazzling free style that rated him a first from the cheering crowd if not from the judges."

    ...Ramsay started out his program with a series of walleys in both directions into back cross rolls into a double lutz. He had very good speed into a nice double axel. I can't make out my notes for the next bit, but then he did a change sit spin, straight-line steps with hops, double loop, half lutz, and some dancey steps into a triple salchow with a slight two-foot on the landing. More edge steps, then some bracket steps, a flying camel in a layover position, and more dancey steps. A delayed axel, single axels in opposite directions, and still more dancey footwork. Then a series of an axel and a double axel with arms crossed, a single axel, double lutz, straight-line footwork. And then, at the end of the program, wham! -- he knocked off a double flip, double loop, double salchow, and another double flip one right after the other, and ended with a split jump into a flying sit spin. Not only was this program packed with both jumps and footwork, it was delivered with a great deal of boyish charm and self-confidence.

    Ramsay was also a big hit at the North American Championships following Nationals. The "Skating" magazine report said:

    "Douglas Ramsay was the darling of the audience. The foot stamping, applauding crowd acclaimed his every dextrous motion. His magnificent axel with arms folded, and his skillful bracket dance brought loud cheers. The captivating Ramsay unfortunately missed a double axel. He ended in fourth place" [due to not-so-strong compulsory figures.]
    http://www.frogsonice.com/skateweb/a...ationals.shtml

    Ramsey (sometime referred to as "Dick Button, Jr.") was killed in the 1961 plane crash on the way to Worlds in Brussels. He was 16.
    Last edited by Mathman; 07-16-2008 at 08:48 PM.

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    Oh... Doug Ramsey... what a loss for the sport... a Kurt Browning for the US that didn't get to be.

    Interesting to note Frank Carroll came in second.... One of the few top skaters who bothered with SPINS in both directions was his premiere student, MK of course. Her camel (I believe it was) to her non dominant direction was hardly a +3 by todays standards, but its placement in the program was genius as far as music was concerned, subtle - but highly effective. Wonder whether Frank has any wunderkinds who he is teaching to jump or spin in both directions... IMO, that would be a really coup.

    Today the only top notch skater that I can think of spinning in both directions in their programs... Jeffrey Buttle.... go Jeffrey!

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    Go Caroline! <3 carolinefan177's Avatar
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    Didn't Caroline Zhang spin in both directions in her Ave Maria program; I think it was a combination in the middle of the selection...

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    it's olympic season :D bethissoawesome's Avatar
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    I'm ambidexterous and do counter-clockwise rotations for my jumps and spins, but I've landed a few shaky double axels with a clockwise rotation (I use a clockwise rotation for bar release pirouettes in trapeze), but it's not somethiing I'm pursuing and my coach doesn't want me to do any clockwise rotations. I find that it just makes the muscle memory for the jump confusing if you practice it both ways. But in my opinion, if you have the axel down, it's the easiest to try using the reverse rotation that you normally use. My two cents ^_^

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    Custom Title antmanb's Avatar
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    I'm not sure whether he ever did back to back double axels in both directions but i believe that John Curry jumped in both directions. It was only when he went to Carlo Fassi that Fassi insisted that he stick to doing jumps in one direction in order to allow his muscle memory to build up and retain the required memory for the triple jumps.

    I'm sure i've seen footage of him doing double axels to the "other" side.

    Ant

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    Bob Paul had to switch his natural jump direction to skate with Barbara Wagner, and they were Olympic pairs champions. Don Jackson did axels in both directions in his world championship program.

  14. #14
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    If the two jumps are counted as a single jumping pass, then it is a jump sequence and it gets only 80% of the base value. So two double Axels in a row (worth 3.5 points each if done separately) give the skater only 5.6 points total as a sequence.

    Michelle Kwan had an exhibition number with COI in which she did four double Axels in a row (all the same way.) I think under CoP only three would count, and these would be discounted by the 80% factor.

    IIRC Carol Heiss (the first lady to do a double Axel) was famous for being able to do an extended sequence of single Axels, alternating directions. Heiss was sort of ambidextrous anyway because she mostly jumped clockwise but spun counterclockwise.

    Great thread, Joe!
    Thanks MM, Can't help but think Rohene is one big waste in competitive skating as he got older. But as always a brilliant performer - better than many World Champions whom I wont list - the worm can.

    If doing elements to both sides does not get what I would consider the full proper credit and judged as a single element pass, then that is one major reason, we do not see versatility in figure skating - it's just not worth the meager points.. I guess versatility is a contorted spin or an arm-in-the-air jump. yeah...

  15. #15
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    All you other posters to the thread - Thanks for all the many names of the ambidextrous skaters which today seems like a loss for the CoP.

    It's also the belief that skating is ballet on ice in the old days because dancers jump and pirouetter to both sides. No more, today will we see that in figure skating.

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