Should judges watch/be influenced by practices? | Golden Skate

Should judges watch/be influenced by practices?

Should judges watch/be influenced by practices

  • YES: They should take practice sessions into consideration when judging

    Votes: 6 13.6%
  • YES: They should watch. But it should have no bearing on the judging

    Votes: 23 52.3%
  • NO: They should not watch practice sessions

    Votes: 13 29.5%
  • It doesn't matter one way or the other

    Votes: 2 4.5%

  • Total voters
    44

lulu

Final Flight
Joined
Aug 4, 2003
Judges usually watch practices to get a feel for the skaters. There are some who say that judges are too influenced by these practice sessions-what do you think?
 

dewet

Final Flight
Joined
Jul 28, 2003
They should watch, but shouldn't have their marks influenced by them. Pratices are just practices.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
I don't think they should watch the top tier skaters' practice. They already know how they skate so it doesn't make any sense for them to watch the practice. But they will anyway.

For lower tier skaters (and there are many), I can understand them wanting some sort of familiarity.

But the bottom line is how they skate THAT NIGHT.

Joe
 

show 42

Arm Chair Skate Fan
Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
If the "body of work" of a particular skater is not to be taken into consideration by the judges, there is no need for them to watch the practices. To say it's okay to watch, but not let that influence their judging is like telling a panel of jurors to disregard inadmissable evidence during a trial.......42
 

BronzeisGolden

Medalist
Joined
Jul 27, 2003
I agree with Joe on this one. It all comes down to how a skater performs on a given night. For me, it doesn't seem that this is a major issue. If I were a judge I would want to see what everyone was doing. I would want to have some idea about what to expect from a field of 30. I remember reading that US judge Joe Inman attended practices and would close his eyes and imagine what he thought should be taking shape to such music...then during the competition he would judge the performance based on those thoughts versus how the skater actually performed. I think this is a novel and wonderful idea.
 

Norlite

On the Ice
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
They certainly should attend practices, most importantly at the highest levels. It is very difficult to watch, and evaluate at the same time. Judges use practices, to study a program, note where (they actually take notes) particular attention should be given during the actual competition (I.E. "don't have my head down writing after the triple lutz because a very difficult footwork sequence is next") and where there is just "filler" which would be a great time to jot down a couple notes. No, judges don't know all programs of the top competitors anymore than they have the programs memorized of every skater at their home rink.
They probably don't catch alot of competitions (that they are not working) on TV. They're probably at a cold rink somewhere evaluating Gold tests at the time.



When not at competitions, judges also attend regular practice sessions at various training centres on behave of their federation to give valuable feedback to coaches and skaters on what judges are looking for, and how any particular skaters programs are coming along. And to report back to the federation on their team members' progress.
 
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NansXOXOX

Final Flight
Joined
Jul 27, 2003
Norlite said:
It is very difficult to watch, and evaluate at the same time. Judges use practices, to study a program, note where (they actually take notes) particular attention should be given during the actual competition (I.E. "don't have my head down writing after the triple lutz because a very difficult footwork sequence is next") and where there is just "filler" which would be a great time to jot down a couple notes.

Thanks for this insight, I never really thought of this. It gives me a whole new perspective on this issue.

Nan
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
Sorry Norlite, have to disagree. Taking notes is even worse then just watching. example:

Skater A is at practice and does a triple combo and it was noted by the watching judge. In the Long Program that night Skater A does a triple lutz and then either a popped up single toe or skipped the entire second part of the combo.

That judged who watched the practice, and madea note of the triple combo, will consider this a grave error (unless, of course, he is a fan of the skater). Subjectively, he will not think that no error was committed. It was not that way at practice!

It is the Free Skate, and the Skater A has the right to a triple lutz, single toe or a triple lutz alone.

I'm sure you are thinking ideal situations but do they exist?

Joe
 

Norlite

On the Ice
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Joesitz said:
I'm sure you are thinking ideal situations but do they exist?

Joe

It is standard practice and part of the judges responsibility at competitions. The event ref will ask why they were not at practice if they miss it.
 
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Norlite

On the Ice
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Joesitz said:
Skater A is at practice and does a triple combo and it was noted by the watching judge. In the Long Program that night Skater A does a triple lutz and then either a popped up single toe or skipped the entire second part of the combo.

That judged who watched the practice, and madea note of the triple combo, will consider this a grave error (unless, of course, he is a fan of the skater). Subjectively, he will not think that no error was committed. It was not that way at practice!

Even if for some reason they are not at the practice, now under COP, they will all been given a list of elements for each skater's program anyway, so they are going to know that the combo was missed. Plus, even now, without GOP, most federations hand out lists of their skaters elements in programs. It is not meant to be a secret.
 
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LilyBerg

Rinkside
Joined
Aug 21, 2003
Results should be based on the performance the skater had at the event. At least I think so, it feels funny if judges bases a part off their results on the practice sessions. They cannot be as focused under all of the skaters sessions now and under the event now or can they?
Because if they aren't the results ain't fair to the other skaters that are competing.

/Lily
 

mpal2

Final Flight
Joined
Jul 27, 2003
Just adding to Norlite's comments about the list of elements.

The judges had a list of the skaters elements before they skated during 2003 Worlds. In fact, I was sitting with some photographers and a lady who had connections. She gave me a copy of the ladies free skate and who planned what in the program. Still have it in fact. It was very interesting to look through. Everyone pretty much had the same planned elements, just in different places. Michelle stood out as the only top tier skater with no 3/3 planned.
 

Grgranny

Da' Spellin' Homegirl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
I'll probably get into trouble for this. It always bothers me when a judge misses some of the program because he has to make notes. Why couldn't they have a little private microphone (no
one else could hear) and make their voice notes and play them back in their own ear after the skater finishes?
 

Olenska

Rinkside
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
My first answer would be "NEVER!". But then I read comments posted by other members who might know the judging process better than me, so I changed my answer for "Almost NEVER".

I don't think that judges should be able to have a look-see at programs. Because, and recent years' events would tend to prove me right, they are way to fallible: It remains to be proven that a judge would not give marks for a fantastic practice session. Or for a so-so program by a top-ranked skater.

That thread made me think of another phenomena that irks me to no end: the "Your Time Will ComeTM" theory. The theory that made that Bourne and Kraatz won their friggin' very last Worlds.
I remember reading a comment made by Sophie Moniotte after the Salt Lake City debacle. She said something to the effect that a skater or team shouldn't worry if judges are unfair, because someday, their time will come to win. :rolleye: Right, Sophie.

So by that rationale, Timothy Goebel might win the Worlds in... 2007. Or earlier if Plush and Yags retire before Turin. And if the Elvis school of skating is fashionable again and Takeshi Honda becomes the judges' darling. Oh, whatever.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
Norlite said:
Even if for some reason they are not at the practice, now under COP, they will all been given a list of elements for each skater's program anyway, so they are going to know that the combo was missed. Plus, even now, without GOP, most federations hand out lists of their skaters elements in programs. It is not meant to be a secret.

You are a stickler for the rules:rolleye: My feeling of keeping the judges away from practice is simply I believe they should know what they see at the competition. That's their job.

Now tell me, once they know that the combo was missed, what does the judge do? Mark the skater down even though the Free Skate by definition is to be judged at what happens that night and only what happens that night. Not what was supposed to happen because of a list or what was seen at practice.

Joe
 

Norlite

On the Ice
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Joesitz said:
You are a stickler for the rules:rolleye: My feeling of keeping the judges away from practice is simply I believe they should know what they see at the competition. That's their job.

Well, I do believe all involved in competition in any sport should definately follow the rules. Geez, not following the rules would be cheating. :rolleye:
And their job description, like I said, does include attending practices.

Now tell me, once they know that the combo was missed, what does the judge do? Mark the skater down even though the Free Skate by definition is to be judged at what happens that night and only what happens that night. Not what was supposed to happen because of a list or what was seen at practice.

There is no mandatory deduction for a missed element in the freeskate.
There is no credit given for a missed element in the freeskate.

Hopefully, the judge would count it as a missed element and give no credit. Because if they counted it as an isolated triple lutz, chances are they would receive a deduction under the Zayak rule, since they would have already had a lutz in their program. :rolleye:
 
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Joined
Jul 11, 2003
"Well, I do believe all involved in competition in any sport should definately follow the rules. Geez, not following the rules would be cheating. :rolleye:
And their job description, like I said, does include attending practices."

So there is no room for discussion here. It's follow the rules and don't think.

"There is no mandatory deduction for a missed element in the freeskate.
There is no credit given for a missed element in the freeskate."

I'm sure we all know that. So what's the point of watching practice or getting a list?

It seems from what you say, one may not discuss any changes in rules. Am I correct?

Joe
 

Norlite

On the Ice
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Joesitz said:
So there is no room for discussion here. It's follow the rules and don't think.

I haven't the foggiest clue what you are talking about here. I'm talking about actual competition. Or to use one of your words, a "contest"
What happens when you enter a contest and don't follow the rules?? I think you are usually disqualified.
And I would think following the rules requires more thinking than not.

I'm sure we all know that.
Then why did you ask if the skater should be marked down??

So what's the point of watching practice or getting a list?

Because the list looks like:
3Lutz
Spiral sequence
3 Loop
Combo spin
2 Axel
circular footwork
3 Flip- 2 toe
and on and on..........how would that let me know what to pay particular attention to for each skater?? Judging requires lots and lots of marking during the actual competition. And then very few minutes to rank that skaters out of, say 30, before the next one is on the ice ready to start. So, back to the topic of this poll, while the marks are given for how the program is skated during the actual competition, it is important that each judge familiarize with each skater beforehand, during the official practice, to make sure they know specifics to watch for, for that particular skater.
BTW, thats why it is called "official "practices. Skaters and coaches choose to attend these for the purpose of giving the judges the chance to watch. And they hope they do.

It seems from what you say, one may not discuss any changes in rules. Am I correct?

I haven't a clue what this means. Changes are made at every AGM of every governing body every year. In fact, for the month or so ahead, we submit recommendations for rule changes, for both competitive and test stream skating. Some years many are adopted, some years few. And in turn the GB's submit to the ISU. But, I can assure you, there will never be a rule banning judges from practices, because, in the competitive skating world, it is welcomed, wanted, and needed by the skaters, coaches, and judges.
 
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