Should judges watch/be influenced by practices?

**Olenska** · 08-24-2003, 08:28 PM

My first answer would be "NEVER!". But then I read comments posted by other members who might know the judging process better than me, so I changed my answer for "Almost NEVER".

I don't think that judges should be able to have a look-see at programs. Because, and recent years' events would tend to prove me right, they are way to fallible: It remains to be proven that a judge would not give marks for a fantastic practice session. Or for a so-so program by a top-ranked skater.

That thread made me think of another phenomena that irks me to no end: the "Your Time Will ComeTM" theory. The theory that made that Bourne and Kraatz won their friggin' very last Worlds.
I remember reading a comment made by Sophie Moniotte after the Salt Lake City debacle. She said something to the effect that a skater or team shouldn't worry if judges are unfair, because someday, their time will come to win.

Right, Sophie.

So by that rationale, Timothy Goebel might win the Worlds in... 2007. Or earlier if Plush and Yags retire before Turin. And if the Elvis school of skating is fashionable again and Takeshi Honda becomes the judges' darling. Oh, whatever.

**Joesitz** · 08-24-2003, 09:38 PM

Originally posted by Norlite
Even if for some reason they are not at the practice, now under COP, they will all been given a list of elements for each skater's program anyway, so they are going to know that the combo was missed. Plus, even now, without GOP, most federations hand out lists of their skaters elements in programs. It is not meant to be a secret.

You are a stickler for the rules

My feeling of keeping the judges away from practice is simply I believe they should know what they see at the competition. That's their job.

Now tell me, once they know that the combo was missed, what does the judge do? Mark the skater down even though the Free Skate by definition is to be judged at what happens that night and only what happens that night. Not what was supposed to happen because of a list or what was seen at practice.

Joe

**Norlite** · 08-24-2003, 10:10 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Joesitz
You are a stickler for the rules My feeling of keeping the judges away from practice is simply I believe they should know what they see at the competition. That's their job.

Well, I do believe all involved in competition in any sport should definately follow the rules. Geez, not following the rules would be cheating.

And their job description, like I said, does include attending practices.

Now tell me, once they know that the combo was missed, what does the judge do? Mark the skater down even though the Free Skate by definition is to be judged at what happens that night and only what happens that night. Not what was supposed to happen because of a list or what was seen at practice.

There is no mandatory deduction for a missed element in the freeskate.
There is no credit given for a missed element in the freeskate.

Hopefully, the judge would count it as a missed element and give no credit. Because if they counted it as an isolated triple lutz, chances are they would receive a deduction under the Zayak rule, since they would have already had a lutz in their program.

**Joesitz** · 08-25-2003, 07:15 AM

"Well, I do believe all involved in competition in any sport should definately follow the rules. Geez, not following the rules would be cheating.

And their job description, like I said, does include attending practices."

So there is no room for discussion here. It's follow the rules and don't think.

"There is no mandatory deduction for a missed element in the freeskate.
There is no credit given for a missed element in the freeskate."

I'm sure we all know that. So what's the point of watching practice or getting a list?

It seems from what you say, one may not discuss any changes in rules. Am I correct?

Joe

**Norlite** · 08-25-2003, 08:36 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Joesitz
So there is no room for discussion here. It's follow the rules and don't think.

I haven't the foggiest clue what you are talking about here. I'm talking about actual competition. Or to use one of your words, a "contest"
What happens when you enter a contest and don't follow the rules?? I think you are usually disqualified.
And I would think following the rules requires more thinking than not.

I'm sure we all know that.
Then why did you ask if the skater should be marked down??

So what's the point of watching practice or getting a list?

Because the list looks like:
3Lutz
Spiral sequence
3 Loop
Combo spin
2 Axel
circular footwork
3 Flip- 2 toe
and on and on..........how would that let me know what to pay particular attention to for each skater?? Judging requires lots and lots of marking during the actual competition. And then very few minutes to rank that skaters out of, say 30, before the next one is on the ice ready to start. So, back to the topic of this poll, while the marks are given for how the program is skated during the actual competition, it is important that each judge familiarize with each skater beforehand, during the official practice, to make sure they know specifics to watch for, for that particular skater.
BTW, thats why it is called "official "practices. Skaters and coaches choose to attend these for the purpose of giving the judges the chance to watch. And they hope they do.

It seems from what you say, one may not discuss any changes in rules. Am I correct?

I haven't a clue what this means. Changes are made at every AGM of every governing body every year. In fact, for the month or so ahead, we submit recommendations for rule changes, for both competitive and test stream skating. Some years many are adopted, some years few. And in turn the GB's submit to the ISU. But, I can assure you, there will never be a rule banning judges from practices, because, in the competitive skating world, it is welcomed, wanted, and needed by the skaters, coaches, and judges.

**aly*cutie** · 08-25-2003, 09:01 AM

I said yes but judges shouldn't be influenced by the pratices.

**Joesitz** · 08-25-2003, 12:00 PM

Norlite - I am not at all foggy about what your are getting at.

If you haven't read the topic of this thread (I really don't think you have) it reads:Should judges watch/be influenced by practies?

We know the rules by now but we aren't discussing the rules. Reread the topic again, it is asking all of us if we think it is ok for judges to watch practice sessions.

Some people think from their own minds (and without rules) that the judges should watch practice sessions. Many others do not.

Without looking at the rules, what is your personal opinion about judges watching practice sessions? Whatever your answer is, it is ok with me as long as it isn't attached to what prevails in rules.

There are many topics in Golden Skate which open up discussions on what is believed to be unfair rules. It's not sinful to disagree with the rules.

Joe

**Norlite** · 08-25-2003, 12:36 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Joesitz
[B]Norlite - I am not at all foggy about what your are getting at.

If you haven't read the topic of this thread (I really don't think you have) it reads:Should judges watch/be influenced by practies?

*sigh* The first two lines of my very first post: "They certainly should attend practices, most importantly at the highest levels. It is very difficult to watch, and evaluate at the same time. "

We know the rules by now but we aren't discussing the rules. Reread the topic again, it is asking all of us if we think it is ok for judges to watch practice sessions.

The first time "rules" was brought into this thread.: "You are a stickler for the rules

" Your comment.

Some people think from their own minds (and without rules) that the judges should watch practice sessions. Many others do not.

Well, Hmm.. I try to get all the facts about any particular situation before offering up an opinion, instead of making assumptions.

Without looking at the rules, what is your personal opinion about judges watching practice sessions? Whatever your answer is, it is ok with me as long as it isn't attached to what prevails in rules.

My personal opinion.....when my daughter is competing, and she goes directly from a spead eagle into a 2 axel, and I look over at the panel and see one head down, the one head of the one judge who couldn't be bothered to get out of bed early enough to make the official practice that morning, so didn't realize this very difficult move was happening, I am upset. And I find it very unfair.
(please excuse the run-on sentence

)

There are many topics in Golden Skate which open up discussions on what is believed to be unfair rules. It's not sinful to disagree with the rules.

Of course not. It is also pointless to pretend they don't exist.

One last thing, then I am done with this thread.

It is perfectly fine to not like, or find interesting, competitive figure skating. If you like to watch skating for the beauty of it. Great.
I myself am not a fan of gymnastics, although I love something like Cirque du Soleil. So, I have no real interest in learning about competitive requirements, judging, training, or anything else of gymnastics, nor could I speak about them. But I still sometimes watch, just to see the vaulting and tumbling. And there isn't anything wrong with that.

**patsue47** · 08-25-2003, 12:49 PM

N0--shouldn't watch practices at all. I think judges are sometimes influenced by practice sessions in that they see a skater complete a triple lutz time and time again and then during competition the skater "flutzes" instead. So the judges think- -"well I saw him/her complete this perfectly in practice, I know he/she can do a wonderful lutz so I'm not going to mark down this terrible flutz as much as I should." This philosophy goes for any element. I think this is where a lot of skaters get "held up" by judges during marks.

I think the judges should base their marks on what they see that night (or day) without any preconceived ideas from practice. The mentality seems to be "ok, she/he fell on this simple spin but because I saw her/him do incredible spins in practice I'm still going to give her/him a 5.9 for tech and presentation because I think this person is a fantastic skater and deserves to win. Not right but then this isn't a "perfect world."

**Mathman** · 08-25-2003, 02:10 PM

I think that watching practices will be an absolute must when the CoP goes into effect in the coming season -- the elements that must be evaluated individually will fly at the judges so fast that they will practically be forced to know what's coming up in substantial detail if they have any hope of keeping up with the scoring...AND this sentence is seventy-one words long, beating Norlite's by two words. (The two words being "two words.")

Mathman

**VIETgrlTerifa** · 08-25-2003, 06:59 PM

ITA with everything Norlite said. Watching practices are very esstential to skaters because there are always little nuances and choreography that a judge and the audience will miss the first time they watch the program and they need to watch the programs multiple times to get an idea of the choreography.

When I was watching Shen/Zhao's SLC SP, I noticed that right after their difficult lift with variations they went right into their step sequence, and in the beginning of the step sequence a lot of the judges had their heads down because they were writing that they had completed the whole lift cleanly. I think if it wasn't for them watching the practices, they would have missed the steps S/Z did in the beginning, but since there were at the practices, they were already familar with the types and difficulty of the steps.

Also, watching practices helps the judges figure out the difficulty of each of the skater's programs so they can make a sort of base mark from that. It's very hard to analyze all the difficulties a program without having seen the programs before hand.

**Joesitz** · 08-25-2003, 07:44 PM

My experience in watching practice sessions, is that very few skaters go through their complete routines during that time period although their music is being played. And those that do have a difficult time with the run-through because there are at least 5 other skaters on the ice at the same time. Catching a nuance during their run through is not easy. Most are practicing their triples (or quads) during the whole practice. Every once in a while they hear a familiar strain in their music and run through that portion of it.

One can't tell how many judges show up for this ession. Practice sessions are normally in the early morning. I would guess, it matters what was going on the night before. Coaches are there!

How all this effects the COP will be most interesting. However, I agree with patue, judges should NOT watch practice session. Their job is to judge what they see that night (or day) - not yesterday morning. Judges should not need help. They should know their job.

Joe

**mzheng** · 08-25-2003, 08:47 PM

I voted second choice. A judge should watch skaters official practice but judge the program only based on the competetion.

ITA with everything Norlite said.

IIRC I read somewhere in a book 'watching official practice is also a requirement for judges, so judge has the overall impression of skater's program and his ability' .

No matter how good a judge is, it is hard to imagine a judge would remember every movement, in a 4 min LP for 32 skaters by FIRST time look at their program.

**patsue47** · 08-26-2003, 12:47 PM

A judge is just that--to consider a skater's program/performance based on what is being put down on the ice at that point in time. Skating order or being a "favorite" should not even be considered.
Many of these judges have been working in their chosen field for a number of years (they didn't start out judging the elite skaters--they had to work their way up the ladder with lesser competitions, along the way they learned the rules). So, they should already know technique- -both good and bad. They know a good jump, spin, footwork sequence, etc from poorly executed ones.
Even we, as non-professionals, know what constitutes a good skate from a bad skate and we don't even know what goes on during practice except for daily reports from people lucky enough to be attending the competition (and face it, do these reporters remained entirely non-prejudiced?). So, when a judge, seeing the performance for the first is forced to actually WATCH what's going on (and not rely on something he/she saw a skater do two days ago, under more relaxed circumstances) then I can't help but feel the ice would be a level playing field for all of the skaters.

**icenut84** · 08-26-2003, 02:37 PM

I voted for "no". Although now I've read everyone's posts, I'm not 100% sure. The judges should have "some" idea of what to expect, if only to make the whole process of judging a little easier. It's very difficult to analyse everything at once. A while back, I tried to analyse the top 3 ladies LPs from the 94 Olympics, and I had to keep rewinding. It was hard to note everything, so it would probably be even harder live, without the helpful camera close-ups/angles, and in even more detail. Which is one of the reasons I think there should be one panel of judges for the first mark and another panel for the second mark, depending on their area of expertise. I'm not convinced they should attend practice sessions though, because they could be (and probably are) influenced by it. Two skaters giving a performance of similar standards could be marked differently because one was a brilliant performance *for that skater*, while the other could have been a little disappointing for their standards, or from what the judge saw in practice.