Should judges watch/be influenced by practices?
- Thread starter lulu
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- Jul 11, 2003
Norlite - I am not at all foggy about what your are getting at.
If you haven't read the topic of this thread (I really don't think you have) it reads:Should judges watch/be influenced by practies?
We know the rules by now but we aren't discussing the rules. Reread the topic again, it is asking all of us if we think it is ok for judges to watch practice sessions.
Some people think from their own minds (and without rules) that the judges should watch practice sessions. Many others do not.
Without looking at the rules, what is your personal opinion about judges watching practice sessions? Whatever your answer is, it is ok with me as long as it isn't attached to what prevails in rules.
There are many topics in Golden Skate which open up discussions on what is believed to be unfair rules. It's not sinful to disagree with the rules.
Joe
If you haven't read the topic of this thread (I really don't think you have) it reads:Should judges watch/be influenced by practies?
We know the rules by now but we aren't discussing the rules. Reread the topic again, it is asking all of us if we think it is ok for judges to watch practice sessions.
Some people think from their own minds (and without rules) that the judges should watch practice sessions. Many others do not.
Without looking at the rules, what is your personal opinion about judges watching practice sessions? Whatever your answer is, it is ok with me as long as it isn't attached to what prevails in rules.
There are many topics in Golden Skate which open up discussions on what is believed to be unfair rules. It's not sinful to disagree with the rules.
Joe
Joesitz said:Norlite - I am not at all foggy about what your are getting at.
If you haven't read the topic of this thread (I really don't think you have) it reads:Should judges watch/be influenced by practies?
*sigh* The first two lines of my very first post: "They certainly should attend practices, most importantly at the highest levels. It is very difficult to watch, and evaluate at the same time. "
We know the rules by now but we aren't discussing the rules. Reread the topic again, it is asking all of us if we think it is ok for judges to watch practice sessions.
The first time "rules" was brought into this thread.: "You are a stickler for the rules" Your comment.
Some people think from their own minds (and without rules) that the judges should watch practice sessions. Many others do not.
Well, Hmm.. I try to get all the facts about any particular situation before offering up an opinion, instead of making assumptions.
Without looking at the rules, what is your personal opinion about judges watching practice sessions? Whatever your answer is, it is ok with me as long as it isn't attached to what prevails in rules.
My personal opinion.....when my daughter is competing, and she goes directly from a spead eagle into a 2 axel, and I look over at the panel and see one head down, the one head of the one judge who couldn't be bothered to get out of bed early enough to make the official practice that morning, so didn't realize this very difficult move was happening, I am upset. And I find it very unfair.
(please excuse the run-on sentence)
There are many topics in Golden Skate which open up discussions on what is believed to be unfair rules. It's not sinful to disagree with the rules.
Of course not. It is also pointless to pretend they don't exist.
One last thing, then I am done with this thread.
It is perfectly fine to not like, or find interesting, competitive figure skating. If you like to watch skating for the beauty of it. Great.
I myself am not a fan of gymnastics, although I love something like Cirque du Soleil. So, I have no real interest in learning about competitive requirements, judging, training, or anything else of gymnastics, nor could I speak about them. But I still sometimes watch, just to see the vaulting and tumbling. And there isn't anything wrong with that.
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N0--shouldn't watch practices at all. I think judges are sometimes influenced by practice sessions in that they see a skater complete a triple lutz time and time again and then during competition the skater "flutzes" instead. So the judges think- -"well I saw him/her complete this perfectly in practice, I know he/she can do a wonderful lutz so I'm not going to mark down this terrible flutz as much as I should." This philosophy goes for any element. I think this is where a lot of skaters get "held up" by judges during marks.
I think the judges should base their marks on what they see that night (or day) without any preconceived ideas from practice. The mentality seems to be "ok, she/he fell on this simple spin but because I saw her/him do incredible spins in practice I'm still going to give her/him a 5.9 for tech and presentation because I think this person is a fantastic skater and deserves to win. Not right but then this isn't a "perfect world."
I think the judges should base their marks on what they see that night (or day) without any preconceived ideas from practice. The mentality seems to be "ok, she/he fell on this simple spin but because I saw her/him do incredible spins in practice I'm still going to give her/him a 5.9 for tech and presentation because I think this person is a fantastic skater and deserves to win. Not right but then this isn't a "perfect world."
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
I think that watching practices will be an absolute must when the CoP goes into effect in the coming season -- the elements that must be evaluated individually will fly at the judges so fast that they will practically be forced to know what's coming up in substantial detail if they have any hope of keeping up with the scoring...AND this sentence is seventy-one words long, beating Norlite's by two words. (The two words being "two words.")
Mathman
Mathman
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- Jul 26, 2003
ITA with everything Norlite said. Watching practices are very esstential to skaters because there are always little nuances and choreography that a judge and the audience will miss the first time they watch the program and they need to watch the programs multiple times to get an idea of the choreography.
When I was watching Shen/Zhao's SLC SP, I noticed that right after their difficult lift with variations they went right into their step sequence, and in the beginning of the step sequence a lot of the judges had their heads down because they were writing that they had completed the whole lift cleanly. I think if it wasn't for them watching the practices, they would have missed the steps S/Z did in the beginning, but since there were at the practices, they were already familar with the types and difficulty of the steps.
Also, watching practices helps the judges figure out the difficulty of each of the skater's programs so they can make a sort of base mark from that. It's very hard to analyze all the difficulties a program without having seen the programs before hand.
When I was watching Shen/Zhao's SLC SP, I noticed that right after their difficult lift with variations they went right into their step sequence, and in the beginning of the step sequence a lot of the judges had their heads down because they were writing that they had completed the whole lift cleanly. I think if it wasn't for them watching the practices, they would have missed the steps S/Z did in the beginning, but since there were at the practices, they were already familar with the types and difficulty of the steps.
Also, watching practices helps the judges figure out the difficulty of each of the skater's programs so they can make a sort of base mark from that. It's very hard to analyze all the difficulties a program without having seen the programs before hand.
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
My experience in watching practice sessions, is that very few skaters go through their complete routines during that time period although their music is being played. And those that do have a difficult time with the run-through because there are at least 5 other skaters on the ice at the same time. Catching a nuance during their run through is not easy. Most are practicing their triples (or quads) during the whole practice. Every once in a while they hear a familiar strain in their music and run through that portion of it.
One can't tell how many judges show up for this ession. Practice sessions are normally in the early morning. I would guess, it matters what was going on the night before. Coaches are there!
How all this effects the COP will be most interesting. However, I agree with patue, judges should NOT watch practice session. Their job is to judge what they see that night (or day) - not yesterday morning. Judges should not need help. They should know their job.
Joe
One can't tell how many judges show up for this ession. Practice sessions are normally in the early morning. I would guess, it matters what was going on the night before. Coaches are there!
How all this effects the COP will be most interesting. However, I agree with patue, judges should NOT watch practice session. Their job is to judge what they see that night (or day) - not yesterday morning. Judges should not need help. They should know their job.
Joe
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I voted second choice. A judge should watch skaters official practice but judge the program only based on the competetion.
ITA with everything Norlite said.
IIRC I read somewhere in a book 'watching official practice is also a requirement for judges, so judge has the overall impression of skater's program and his ability' .
No matter how good a judge is, it is hard to imagine a judge would remember every movement, in a 4 min LP for 32 skaters by FIRST time look at their program.
ITA with everything Norlite said.
IIRC I read somewhere in a book 'watching official practice is also a requirement for judges, so judge has the overall impression of skater's program and his ability' .
No matter how good a judge is, it is hard to imagine a judge would remember every movement, in a 4 min LP for 32 skaters by FIRST time look at their program.
A judge is just that--to consider a skater's program/performance based on what is being put down on the ice at that point in time. Skating order or being a "favorite" should not even be considered.
Many of these judges have been working in their chosen field for a number of years (they didn't start out judging the elite skaters--they had to work their way up the ladder with lesser competitions, along the way they learned the rules). So, they should already know technique- -both good and bad. They know a good jump, spin, footwork sequence, etc from poorly executed ones.
Even we, as non-professionals, know what constitutes a good skate from a bad skate and we don't even know what goes on during practice except for daily reports from people lucky enough to be attending the competition (and face it, do these reporters remained entirely non-prejudiced?). So, when a judge, seeing the performance for the first is forced to actually WATCH what's going on (and not rely on something he/she saw a skater do two days ago, under more relaxed circumstances) then I can't help but feel the ice would be a level playing field for all of the skaters.
Many of these judges have been working in their chosen field for a number of years (they didn't start out judging the elite skaters--they had to work their way up the ladder with lesser competitions, along the way they learned the rules). So, they should already know technique- -both good and bad. They know a good jump, spin, footwork sequence, etc from poorly executed ones.
Even we, as non-professionals, know what constitutes a good skate from a bad skate and we don't even know what goes on during practice except for daily reports from people lucky enough to be attending the competition (and face it, do these reporters remained entirely non-prejudiced?). So, when a judge, seeing the performance for the first is forced to actually WATCH what's going on (and not rely on something he/she saw a skater do two days ago, under more relaxed circumstances) then I can't help but feel the ice would be a level playing field for all of the skaters.
I voted for "no". Although now I've read everyone's posts, I'm not 100% sure. The judges should have "some" idea of what to expect, if only to make the whole process of judging a little easier. It's very difficult to analyse everything at once. A while back, I tried to analyse the top 3 ladies LPs from the 94 Olympics, and I had to keep rewinding. It was hard to note everything, so it would probably be even harder live, without the helpful camera close-ups/angles, and in even more detail. Which is one of the reasons I think there should be one panel of judges for the first mark and another panel for the second mark, depending on their area of expertise. I'm not convinced they should attend practice sessions though, because they could be (and probably are) influenced by it. Two skaters giving a performance of similar standards could be marked differently because one was a brilliant performance *for that skater*, while the other could have been a little disappointing for their standards, or from what the judge saw in practice.
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I see no problem in judges having a "game plan" for each competitor as it would help them to know what to look for during the skater's performance. But I still don't think they should attend practice sessions. As an earlier poster stated--some, if not most, of the competitors don't do full run-throughs--just do isolated moves. So a judge, viewing that competitor at a practice session, might see him/her doing a move that they have practiced over and over and have become proficient doing. The judge would only be getting half the picture and might be more lenient with marks.
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- Jul 11, 2003
It seems many posters are concerned about some judges inability to grasp the whole routine of a skater on THAT night. Maybe the entire competition could be taped so that the judges can re play it and give their results the next night.
Joe
Joe
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- Jul 11, 2003
mpal - It is not unlike a singer sending in demos to the music bigwigs for that big brake.
Maybe, it's time to evaluate a whole routine by fine tuning, in which case, there should not be a rush to judgement.
Joe
Maybe, it's time to evaluate a whole routine by fine tuning, in which case, there should not be a rush to judgement.
Joe
I was actually being a little sarcastic because you still see so many arguments on competitions that are decades old.
With that being said, I do think that the judges are rushed in giving out scores. I think the judges should have more time to review any element they need. I also think it would help if they were able to pull up 2 skater's for video comparison (using the 6.0 method at least).
If a judge has a question on a skater's 2 axel, 3 ltz, 3 loop, he/she could review each element as long as they needed to. If skater x were the 1st to skate in a SP and skater y was the last, a side-by-side video comparison would be more fair. Honestly, how can you remember everything that far apart.
I don't know how much can be done without torturing the fans of today who are used to getting everything in 5 seconds. I'm quite sure the tv networks would have something to say about longer waits. I would just like to see a little more time and attention to all details in the scoring. I think there could be quite a few bad judgements because someone was rushed.
With that being said, I do think that the judges are rushed in giving out scores. I think the judges should have more time to review any element they need. I also think it would help if they were able to pull up 2 skater's for video comparison (using the 6.0 method at least).
If a judge has a question on a skater's 2 axel, 3 ltz, 3 loop, he/she could review each element as long as they needed to. If skater x were the 1st to skate in a SP and skater y was the last, a side-by-side video comparison would be more fair. Honestly, how can you remember everything that far apart.
I don't know how much can be done without torturing the fans of today who are used to getting everything in 5 seconds. I'm quite sure the tv networks would have something to say about longer waits. I would just like to see a little more time and attention to all details in the scoring. I think there could be quite a few bad judgements because someone was rushed.
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
Lisa - What about last minute changes. Back in 199? when Kwan v. LuChen. Kwan left out the falling leave (I believe) and threw in a triple toe. Would a judge be ok with that?
Joe
Joe
Joe- I don't see any reason why he shouldn't. I didn't mean to say that a skater should skate exactly the way he planned to do (handing a plan to the judge and skate accordingly), but it would be useful for a judge to know what to expect, when and where the important elements are to be expected, so that he might watch the skater instead of look at his papers in decisive moments.
And if a skater skates on a more difficult level than he planned to do (answering his opponents, so to speak), why not reward him? But this is only a suggestion, I haven't really thought it through.
And if a skater skates on a more difficult level than he planned to do (answering his opponents, so to speak), why not reward him? But this is only a suggestion, I haven't really thought it through.
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- Jul 30, 2003
Should judges watch practices?
Yes, I think they should watch practices and to a certain degree I think it's okay for them to be influenced by it. In terms of the technical execution of the jumps, spins, etc. credit should ONLY be given for how the skater performs in competition.
But there is more to a performance than that. There is also the choreography and how the whole of the program hangs together. And it's extremely difficult to grasp how the program "hangs together" by only watching it once. Viewing practices allows judges to examine the details (or lackthereof) in a program. It also gives them a chance to "get comfortable" with the moves and ruminate on the choreography. This way, when competition happens, the judges can really focus on the skater's performance and execution of the elements. But as far as the quality of the choregraphy is concerned, I think it's good for the judges to have done some evaluation of the program before the competition.
Yes, I think they should watch practices and to a certain degree I think it's okay for them to be influenced by it. In terms of the technical execution of the jumps, spins, etc. credit should ONLY be given for how the skater performs in competition.
But there is more to a performance than that. There is also the choreography and how the whole of the program hangs together. And it's extremely difficult to grasp how the program "hangs together" by only watching it once. Viewing practices allows judges to examine the details (or lackthereof) in a program. It also gives them a chance to "get comfortable" with the moves and ruminate on the choreography. This way, when competition happens, the judges can really focus on the skater's performance and execution of the elements. But as far as the quality of the choregraphy is concerned, I think it's good for the judges to have done some evaluation of the program before the competition.
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