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Thread: 1994 Worlds ladies' results: Surya Bonaly and Yuka Sato

  1. #31
    and... World Peace! Tonichelle's Avatar
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    well, Yuka's just awesomeness squared...

  2. #32
    Gadfly and Bon Vivant Mafke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Yuka Sato's skate was thrilling. One of those whole-greater-than-the-parts thing.
    In other words, exactly the kind of skating that CoP is meant to put an end to.

    How can you count beans if the pile of beans is greater than the sum of the individual beans?

  3. #33
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mafke View Post
    In other words, exactly the kind of skating that CoP is meant to put an end to.
    Case in point: Sato's last move, a plain upright spin, fast and well-centered -- the perfect exclamation point to a world championship performance.

    We will never see that again. It's only a level one spin, and does not even have any extra "bullets" that would give it a positive GOE.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Case in point: Sato's last move, a plain upright spin, fast and well-centered -- the perfect exclamation point to a world championship performance.

    We will never see that again. It's only a level one spin, and does not even have any extra "bullets" that would give it a positive GOE.
    It was well centered and very fast and had 17 revolutions, which is why I said I would give it +2. I can't imagine that most judges wouldn't give at least +1. The GOE bullets are primarily about quality.

    Could she get a higher level without changing the spin much from the way she actually did it?

    You'll notice that (like Bonaly's final spin) it was entered directly after a brief flying upright backspin on the other foot. It's questionable whether that change from backspin to forward spin would count as a change-foot upright spin or as two separate spins -- there was only the one step forward, but on a long enough edge that it could be considered starting a new spin. Any technical specialists out there want to chime in? Even if it were called as one spin, it's possible that judges would ding it for recentering.

    I mentioned that if Bonaly's were called as one spin, it would be level 2 -- because of the difficult (butterfly) flying entrance, and the difficult position in the forward spin.

    It's hard to get credit for a difficult variation in a scratch spin because some of the features (8 revolutions in the same position and speeding up) are pretty much built into the basic definition of the spin and even relative beginners can achieve that, so they don't count as features. Except that it's not even really 8 revs in exactly the same position because of the change in arm and leg position.

    I wonder if a skater was able to hold the opening, slow rotating position of the scratch spin with the arms and free leg fully extended for 8 full revolutions before pulling in and speeding up, whether s/he would get credit for the 8 revolutions feature. For upright spins that feature needs to be in a difficult variation; I would argue that that position is difficult to hold still, but we'd need a ruling from a technical specialist.

    Even the "headless" version of the scratch spin will only get credit as a difficult position if performed in such a way (speed, number of revolutions, etc.) that the technical panel considers it

    So the best option could be entering the forward scratch spin from a backspin of some sort, as Sato did here but in such a way that it would definitely be called as one spin. Either the backward entry itself or a difficult flying entry would add one feature, and I would suggest a simple upright edge change on the backspin as a second feature (personally I find it easier to change from backspin to forward spin if I change edge, although I usually can't hold both edges long enough to qualify for that feature).

    Then just do the forward scratch spin straight, aiming to increase the GOE rather than to increase the level further beyond level 2.

    If it could be done in such a way as to get credit for another feature without decreasing the quality, then something like holding the free leg to the side for 8 revs before pulling in, bending the head backward for several revs, or going to a crossfoot position with both feet crossed on the ice could also be options to get up to level 3 or 4.


    Another point to note is that it is still fairly common for skaters to end combination spins that end on the backspin foot with a fast back scratch spin.

  5. #35
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    So the best option could be entering the forward scratch spin from a backspin of some sort, as Sato did here but in such a way that it would definitely be called as one spin. Either the backward entry itself or a difficult flying entry would add one feature, and I would suggest a simple upright edge change on the backspin as a second feature (personally I find it easier to change from backspin to forward spin if I change edge, although I usually can't hold both edges long enough to qualify for that feature)...

    If it could be done in such a way as to get credit for another feature without decreasing the quality, then something like holding the free leg to the side for 8 revs before pulling in, bending the head backward for several revs, or going to a crossfoot position with both feet crossed on the ice could also be options to get up to level 3 or 4.
    I guess that is why I keep going back and forth on the whole CoP thing. I just do not see how holding your leg out to the side for eight revolutions or crossing your feet on the ice adds anything of value to a skating program. If you spun with your finger stuck in your ear, that would be hard, too -- but don't...please.

    The basic scratch spin is the one thing that distinguishes figure skating from every other human endeavor (lots of sports feature jumping, for instance.) Why take a thing of sublime beauty and bawd it up?

    A little OT, but how would this spin be scored? (Sonia Henie, first spin )

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoRfwgDLN7Y

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    The basic scratch spin is the one thing that distinguishes figure skating from every other human endeavor (lots of sports feature jumping, for instance.)
    Why the scratch spin more than any other spin?

    Here are some similar effects without skates:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PfiP8lHsQc0
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDkRpx4NQb0

    Spinning in a sitting position seems to be less common outside of skating, although this comes pretty close:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnvmT9E7JhA

    Why take a thing of sublime beauty and bawd it up?
    Why take a jump than can be performed exquisitely with 1-2 revolutions in the air and mar its beauty attempting 3-4?

    That's sport -- higher, faster, stronger, more difficult. To find beauty for beauty's sake, look to show skating.

    A little OT, but how would this spin be scored? (Sonia Henie, first spin )

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoRfwgDLN7Y
    Well, I think it would be CoSp1, and I would probably give it +2; I'm sure there are some judges out there who would go with +1 or +3.

    Why does she hold her blade up in front of her thigh for most of the upright spin, "bawding up" the basic position? Does it help her spin even faster? For variety or visual interest? Does it make the spin more difficult and therefore more impressive? Did she do that in her competitive programs?

    Would it count as a "difficult position" to a 2008 technical specialist, to earn one feature for the difficult position itself and another for 8+ revolutions in a difficult upright variation? I don't know. If so, would choosing that position instead of just a plain scratch spin, and/or holding the sitspin for 8 revs instead of 6 as well for another feature be bawding up the spin if a 2008 skater chose to do the spin almost exactly as Henie did it?

    I've said many times that if it were up to me personally I'd adjust the scale of values so that a spin with only one "feature" would be worth more than a spin with none, rather than requiring two features to raise the base mark by raising the level, and I would also make it always more valuable to earn a one higher GOE point than to go up one level.

    In that case, a level 1 spin with +2 GOE would be worth more than a level 3 spin at 0 GOE, so there would indeed be clearer incentive for skaters to choose quality over difficulty if they can't achieve both. But the very best spinners can do both at the same time, so why shouldn't the sport reward them for it?

  7. #37
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    Why the scratch spin more than any other spin?
    I don't know...it just seems more elemental to me. Also you can do it fasater than any other kind of spin. But a good sitspin and a classic layback are cool, too.
    Here are some similar effects without skates:
    ...
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDkRpx4NQb0
    Do not try this at home.

    Why take a jump than can be performed exquisitely with 1-2 revolutions in the air and mar its beauty attempting 3-4?
    Well, my fave for ladies is the double Axel. For men, the triple Axel is the manliest of jumps.

    As far as jumps are concerned, the change I would like to see in the "well-balanced program" is fewer of them and more "well balancing," such as moves in the field and choreography, using highlight elements like jumps to punctuate the choreo. Instead, we usually see the opposite -- choreography is something you toss in during those few seconds between the landing of one jump and the preparation for the next.
    That's sport -- higher, faster, stronger, more difficult.
    I agree with that. But then again, "more difficult" is not part of the Olympic motto. Higher jumps, faster spins, stronger stroking, yes indeed! Difficulty -- if by that we mean spinning in outlandish positions -- is not necessarily a good thing by itself, IMO.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    But then again, "more difficult" is not part of the Olympic motto.
    Not in the motto, no. But one way or another degree of difficulty is part of the scoring of judged sports such as gymnastics, diving, aerial skiing, snowboarding, rhythmic gymnastics, synchronized swimming, etc., as well as figure skating . . . along with "form" or quality of execution, which is not part of the motto either.

  9. #39
    Tripping on the Podium
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    Surya Bonaly vs Yuka Sato

    I love the way Yuka skates but on that performance Surya should have been the winner. Her content was fabulous heads and toes above Yuka.

  10. #40
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    well...

    bonaly's jump was so good, but...

    jump is not at all!

    truly, i didn't like sato's performance.

    not charming,not impressive...

    but bonaly's performance.......is.....



    someone said...

    sato was very! very! lucky! skater!

  11. #41
    Rinkside
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    Well I remember watching this & wondering how Surya took any 1st place ordinals (other than the French judge who gave her 5.9/5.9). IMO Surya's program was a mess:

    Surya:
    2A
    3T/3Sal/2T sequence (the 2T was a little sloppy but the seq was nice)
    3Z- twofooted?
    3R-hand down
    2A
    3F (cheated)/3Sal-so cheated she landed it forward
    3Z/2T

    Yuka:
    3Z
    3F-wide swinging leg
    3R/2T
    2T
    2A/3S sequence
    3R
    3S

    Tanja:
    3R-huge
    3Z-twofoot?
    3T
    3R/2T
    3S
    3T(2ft?)/2T
    2A

    So they all had 6 triples (I am counting 2ft & hand downs), Yuka & Surya both had 7 planned. Yuka & Tanja had much better programs than Surya & even though they both had mistakes, they didn't give a sloppy impression. Surya skated from jump to jump & had very few clean triples. I would not have been surprised if Tanja had been in 2nd....I thought silver was a consolation prize for 1993...but IMO gold for Surya was totally out of the question.

  12. #42
    Dreaming and dancing Bennett's Avatar
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    Maybe Bonaly had been frustrated and resentful for a long time even before this competition. That may be perhaps why she seemed more upset than she should have been (Four judges out of nine gave her the first place. So her superiority in jump contents were at least acknowledged by as many as four judges). But whatever accumulated resentments she had had, it is regrettable that she behaved there as if she were an insulted princess for her personal anguish. This incident completely ruined Yuka's proudest and happiest moment in her career in front of the home crowd. Yuka looked very sad throughout the ceremony and the audience were very upset. I was there in the arena and felt very sorry for Yuka.

  13. #43
    ~ Figure Skating Is My Passion ~ Ladskater's Avatar
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    I remember this medal ceremony incident well. I think it made Surya look like a poor sport and embarrassed Yuka. As far as skaters go, Yuka is a far more graceful skater than Surya. Yuka is a "skaters skater" she is light on her feet and flows effortlessly across the ice. Surya was never as graceful and was heavy footed. She was not really pretty to watch.

    I think this is the first time a skater has shown such poor sportsmanship publically. They are not always happy with the results of a championship, but are usually gracious to one another.

    To me this incident put Surya on the same level as Tonya Harding. Neither are in the history books of figure skating as "good sports."

  14. #44
    L'art pour l'art Medusa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by taf2002 View Post
    So they all had 6 triples (I am counting 2ft & hand downs), Yuka & Surya both had 7 planned. Yuka & Tanja had much better programs than Surya & even though they both had mistakes, they didn't give a sloppy impression. Surya skated from jump to jump & had very few clean triples.
    I just watched the freeprograms and a few other programs by Bonaly. I have to say that in my opinion none of these ladies had what I would call an elegant and secure jumping technique. Bonaly sure had power, but the jumps looked sometimes very out of control, the landings were a bit wild. Sato's easier jumps looked alright except for the one Salchow, but the landings on the Flip and Lutz looked very lysacekish, not really a running edge and the rather wild free leg. I just don't like it if every second jump looks "saved" - of course it makes the program look exciting and you get the impression that the skater is fighting through the performance (Yagudin also had a program here and there where the excitement built up because he seemed to fight for the landings).

    But apart from some jump landings I really enjoyed Sato's performance very much. She wasn't what I would call really lyrical, but very artistic and charismatic. Reminds me of Nakano a bit (without the leg-wrap of course, brrr....).

  15. #45
    Dreaming and dancing Bennett's Avatar
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    I just read that the Olympic committee took away a medal from an athlete who had thrown it away at the medal ceremony. I guess Bonaly was lucky that she could keep still it.

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