Michelle and that elusive 3/3 | Page 2 | Golden Skate

Michelle and that elusive 3/3

H

HopeStar

Guest
Michelle is capable of doing 3/3's, but they're not very consistent. I remember reading about how she wasn't able to land it all season. As for the 2006 Olympics, she's not even sure if she's planning to go. You mentioned that she has extra months to practice since she's not participating in the Grand Prix circuit, but, don't forget, she's also a student at UCLA. Her schedule seemed relaxed, but she has other things to do other than skating. In fact, she didn't even plan to compete in Skate America, but she's merely subbing for Sarah Hughes.

But if she wants to continute to compete 'til '06, she's gonna need a 3/3 (or even a quad), or her technical scores are gonna go all the way down. Personally, I'd like to see her do triple/triple combinations in her programs...

Hi, by the way, I'm new to this forum. I just noticed this and I thought I'll sort of give y'all my thoughts on this topic...hope to see y'all around...
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
rturek - Yes, I was being feliciously funny:eek:

It's just that Irina's hung up on opera divas, and for me, the music is fine. I would like her just to skate to it. I cannot imagine having seen Lucia 4 times twice with Sutherland that she would do a triple lutz. It becomes comical when you've seen the original on stage.

The music is full of melodies both from the soprano and the tenor and, of course, that sextet has so much drama in it. I can see Irina doing a wonderful job of skating to the music without the character.

Joe
 

SkateCynic

Rinkside
Joined
Aug 16, 2003
Hmmm, Michelle and the 3/3.....I think MK and her crew are astute enough to realize that she is most likely going to need to up the ante over the next couple of years, especially if she is going to try for 2006 Olys. That being said, at this point, I don't see much of a problem with her jumps - this past season they looked better than they had the two seasons prior. My personal preference for her would be to maintain the level of quality and difficultly of the jumps she currently has in her arsenal and really push the envelope in the choreography department. I would love to see more intricate, powerful choreography (akin to TFB) and less of the ho-hum choreography a la Aranjuez. Granted, she performed Aranjuez amazingly well at Nats last January, but IMO it didn't have the 'wow' factor TFB had that caught my attention and held it.

Conversely, if Sasha wants to be on top of that podium at Nats and Worlds this coming season, I think she's the one that needs to work on the jumps - far more than Michelle does. As much as I love Sasha's skating, I expect her to fall during a program, while I'm still usually very surprised when MK lands on her rear.

Two amazingly talented women, with strengths and weaknesses that are polar opposites - just like their fan bases. Then again, I think we all know that the winner isn't determined by judging, but rather by which group of fans doesn't piss off the Skating Gods.... :laugh:

*edited because I haven't yet learned not to post until after I've had at least two cups of coffee*
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
I would love to see more intricate, powerful choreography (akin to TFB) and less of the ho-hum choreography a la Aranjuez. Granted, she performed Aranjuez amazingly well at Nats last January, but IMO it didn't have the 'wow' factor TFB had that caught my attention and held it.
I agree. In fact, I have always loved Michelle's short programs. The trouble with long programs in general is that by the time you squeeze in six jumping passes and two or three spins, there isn't much time for any actual skating.

Michelle's Aranjuez, both at Nationals and Worlds, totally blew me away, but it was the technical mastery that that was so impressive, as contrasted with the heart-stopping artistry of The Feeling Begins.

Mathman
 

Bynx

On the Ice
Joined
Jul 29, 2003
davesato:
I went today at Lunch to scope out the place. I looked for any posted schedules and the only thing I found was weekday public freestyle sessions between 6:00am-10:15am and 12:45pm-2:45pm. I saw Johnny Bevan skaking with a girl who I assume is his teammate.

I also asked around and the feeling I got, Michelle pops in on occasion, but doesn't appear to have a regular schedule going on there. So, with that in mind, I think I will not visit Paramount again until I hear she's doing a regular gig. It's a 20 minute drive one way and that's too much to spend for a gamble if she's there or not. Maybe we have some MKFers who live closer to Paramount and can pop-in once in a while and do some snooping.

The outside of the rink looks remodeled. It's a nice looking building from the outside. When I got inside, It looked like a aircraft hanger. One big building with one rink in the middle. Nothing fancy like Healthsouth.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
The Mystery of Michell Kwan continues. Be sure to stay tuned. Someone, maybe the Shadow will know and give it all away.

Joe:rolleye:
 

Bynx

On the Ice
Joined
Jul 29, 2003
The concensus seems to be that with her taking classes and fulfilling other obligations that she simply hasn't decided to start training on a regualr basis as of yet. She has a little over a month until the Campbell's competition and a couple of mothns between then and nationals. So, she more than likely just enjoying what's left of summer.
 

Seonaid920

On the Ice
Joined
Jul 28, 2003
I don't know what the chances are of Michelle Kwan doing another 3/3 but it seems a slim chance that another woman will skate a well-rounded program which includes clean 3/3's.

It has only happened a few times over the past several years and, unfortunately for Ms. Kwan, two of those rarities were performed by someone other than her in the Olympics (Lipinski & Hughes).

Do I think she can still win with a clean program of just 6 or 7 triples? Absolutely.
 

Lucy25

Final Flight
Joined
Jul 31, 2003
curious said:
the question is can michell win 2004 worlds without a 3/3?
I think I have read this question every year for at least the past three! And we all know how those years have turned out. :)

Personally, I don't care if she *wins* Worlds in 2004 or ever again. It will be awesome for her just to medal.
 

mzheng

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 16, 2005
Lucy25 said:
I think I have read this question every year for at least the past three! And we all know how those years have turned out. :)

Personally, I don't care if she *wins* Worlds in 2004 or ever again. It will be awesome for her just to medal.

:)
 

doria

Spectator
Joined
Aug 17, 2003
Joesitz said:
Thanks for the info Bynx. Every little mystery solved is something with regard to Ms "Kwan's to be alone attitude"

If she does do a 3t/3t, that will be enough to satisfy the requirement.

Joe

This year the Code of Points will not be used at worlds, only the GP events. Since she is not doing them there is no reason for her to change her programs to get the maximum points under the COP when she is not even going to be judged on it. If they use it for the Olympics, though, then there is an issue!
 

BronzeisGolden

Medalist
Joined
Jul 27, 2003
LOL, I agree Lucy, I love this thread mainly because it seems to pop up in EVERY off season since 1998! Personally, I could care less if Michelle ever did another 3/3 again. Would it excite me beyond belief? Yes. Simply because it would make her that much better. I also am seeing it as someone else did earlier in the thread...if focusing on 3/3s takes the life out of her programs like it did in 2002, forget about it. She was energetic and full of dramatic fire this year. If she's looking to collect more titles, yes she should incorporate a 3/3...if she's skating for pure enjoyment and wanting to see where that takes her, WHO CARES! I just remember the strain that began to show in her skating during the Olympic year and I never want that for her again.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
thanks for the info Doria. No COP at Nats or Worlds! Interesting, but I think the elusive Kwan just might throw in a 3x3 to show she is competitive. It's immaterial to me, but who really knows MK? Maybe, that Williams guy.

Joe
 

Ladskater

~ Figure Skating Is My Passion ~
Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 28, 2003
I think the biggest "ace" Michelle has up her sleeve is her consistency. She is a solid skater and the judges are aware of her ability to "stay on her feet." It's great to see skaters taking risks and uping the ante, but sometimes it is costly.

If Michelle skates with the flow and conviction she skated with last season, I kind of doubt the 3/3 will "make or break" her.

I have been a skater and around skating for many years and Michelle is the most conistent female skater, I have ever seen. I have never gotten onto the "gushing" Michelle bandwagon, but I really respect her for her consitency. It's amazing.
 
Joined
Aug 3, 2003
First of all, a big HI! to Twinny, Show, Lad, Doris, Joe, Bronzey, Mzheng, Excidra, Mathman, GrGranny, Eltamina, and all those I'm sure I missed. You are reading my very first post on my new (well, newish) iBook using, da da da daaah! Mac OSX or Jaguar! For kewl! Though frankly it does things that scare me, I don't want to get off this most unique topic :laugh:

Here's what I think about Michelle and the 3/3: I hope she does not try to do one. I have not a molecule of doubt that she could do one, but here's my reason, or I should say reasons, why I hope she sticks to 3/2s -- the hip injuries and/or surgeries of:
Tara Lipinski
Jennifer Kirk
Naomi Nari Nam
Deanna Stellato
Rudi Galindo
Alexei Yagudin...
and the hips just keep on comin'.

Although my tone is facetious, I'm dead serious. I strongly believe that the seemingly exponential increase in hip injuries among elite skaters is due to the increase in demande for 3/3s, 4/3s, 4/3/2s, and so on. I don't have any stats, but golly, were ANY young elite skaters having such hip problems ten years ago pre 3/3s for the ladies and 4/3s for the men? Not that I can recall and certainly not in these numbers. And these are just the skaters we know about.

Now if skaters were able to use the hinged skate boot, which according to researchers with the American College of Sports Medicine, should spread out the landing forces of the jump more evenly throughout the ankle, knee, hip, and lower back without so much force and torque focused on the hip. However I still think certain jump combos, like 3lp/3lp are going to be killer on that take-off/landing hip no matter what kind of high-tech skate they come up with.

Last season I heard that Michelle started practicing her 3t/3t but she started having hip pain and thus stopped -- wisely, IMO. Although I agree with Mathman that the COP might make 3/3s more necessary to win, my hope is that the judges will be intelligent enough to give full and duly noted points for all the other elements in the COP if they are performed extraordinarily well, which I think Michelle did last season across the board. (Hmm, "judges" and "intelligent" -- oxymoron?) I think of comparing a Michelle LP with six or seven exquisitely executed jumps consisting of 3s and 3/2s along with the high quality and graceful footwork, speed, ice coverage, musicality, edges, overall balance of the choreography, and on and on to an Elena Sokolova program with two 3/3s and three other 3s that have only mediocre to okay execution levels and a list of other elements that may reach the good but not great level.

Judge Rgirl gives the win to Michelle over Elena in that situation because in short, I don't think one or even two 3/3s in the midst of a program that is several notches below a Michelle program without a 3/3 should win, assuming Michelle's choreography, skating, and performance are up to what they were last year. To me, especially if Michelle goes even further in the direction she started perfecting last season, the whole is so much greater than the sum of its parts that I feel the judges should use the COP to reward that over a two 3/3 program where the whole is less than the sum of its parts.

If Irina is hungry this season and is able to put her heart and soul into a well choreographed program plus hit a 3/3, then I can see her being a possible challenge to Michelle. But as much as I love Irina's skating when she's got the fires burning and her technique in order, I just have a gut feeling that since her mother's illness Irina's spirit is going more in the direction of heart and home, which is perfectly understandable, IMO.

As for what improvements the other ladies will show up with, well, just as every year we ask "What about Michelle and the 3/3?" we also say every year, "The ladies from (fill in country) are really hot this year!" or "This is going to be so-and-so's breakthrough year!" And true, some year it will be some skater's breakthrough year. After all, Michelle has had several breakthrough years and Sokolova had a breakthrough year about five years after she was considered out of the game. OTOH, Sokolova's performance at '03 Worlds, and possibly Russian Nats (I can't recall) was really the only international competition at which she skated that well. Not a thing against Cupcake, since she could easily build on that momentum, but the point is, except for Elena, nobody else consistently delivered their top stuff. Sasha had a great GPF and some much improved from '02 GP events; Fumie had great parts of her SP and LP, just not all at the same event; Kostner had an impressive Euros but didn't have another good competition all season; AP is a mystery because of the domino effect of missing Cup of Russia; Jenny's hip is a problem; and the list goes on and I know I've left people out that are of the calibre for people to say, "Rgirl! How could you have left out (fill in name)?!"

Do I want even stronger choreography and performances from Michelle this year? Of course. Do I think they must include a 3/3 to be not only stronger but World Champ level best? No. I do not think Michelle needs a 3/3 to win Nationals, Worlds, or anything else she enters. I think every other aspect of her skating is now truly so superior to everyone else's that as I said before, the totality of what she does more than makes up for the lack of a 3/3. Things may change if some of the other ladies up the ante on not only the 3/3s but also on everything else, but my feeling is that Michelle is still on an upward trajectory with her skating, which I think means that at least for this season, everyone else will be chasing her.

About a month to go and THEY'RE OFF!
Rgirl -- that's 5395 characters long -- that's characters, not words:p
 
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Bynx

On the Ice
Joined
Jul 29, 2003
more michelle info.

davesato coversation with some MKFer's

Anna,
The Paramount Iceland is in Paramount. It's off the 91 freeway and Paramount Ave (Blvd?).

NYMKFAN51,
I assume Michelle does most of her training in Arrowhead or maybe in Harbor City. Rumor has it that she's been spotted at Harbor City a few times in the past.


Speaking of Michelle, a co-worker was at a mall near Michelle's home and saw her in the parking lot going into a store. He mentioned he was a fan and that he knew a bigger fan who is a member of a webring of some sort. Michelle said, "Oh, you must mean the MK Forum. Tell him I said Hi."

Schez,
The store was nothing fancy. On the same lines as a grocery store. If it were Sak's or something like that, I can just see how many people would start shopping at Sak's. LOL

I know the name of the store and thought it would be giving too much info to mention that store name.

NYMKFAN,
Harbor City is a lot closer to Manhattan Beach than Paramount and Harbor City is a whole lot closer to Torrance where the Parents live, but the drive time for Michelle is about the same. Michelle can hop on the freeway and be in Paramount in about the same amount of time it would take her to drive surface streets to Harbor City.

Michelle was practicing at Paramount. At least, that is the location she trained at last year. Paramount was also the training location for Peggy Fleming, when she competed.

Maybe, this year, Michelle will be a Harbor City since it it closer to where she lives. However, like DaveSato said, Paramount might be just a close timewise with the stops and starts vs. driving the freeway.

Anyway, doesn't Michelle's sister Karen coach at Harbor City?
 

BronzeisGolden

Medalist
Joined
Jul 27, 2003
RGirl is back! I was wondering where you had gone to! I agree that Elena has much to work on (choreography, spirals, etc.) but I think she's a superior skater now compared to seasons past. I thought her "Samson and Delilah" SP at Worlds this year was wonderful. She really had good flow and so much energy...if she went more in that direction (musically, etc.) I think she could become more of a threat. Her LP was just too heavy for her and the choreography was surprisingly bland and sparse. I think Irina is the real wild card this season. Will she pull a Michelle and come back completely renewed and invigorated? It could happen. I'd love to see a Michelle/Irina/Elena/Sasha showdown at Worlds. That would be so exciting...not to mention pure hell and torment for my nerves! So, if Michelle is skating for enjoyment, I say let her do as she pleases. All this 3/3 fuss usually turns out not to mean much (LOL, unless its an Olympic competition!).
 
Joined
Aug 3, 2003
BronzeisGolden said:
So, if Michelle is skating for enjoyment, I say let her do as she pleases.
ITA. Plus I want to see Michelle skating healthy and uninjured for as long as possible and I think 3/3s is a negative impact on that. And yes, it would be great to see someone challenge Michelle in terms of overall skills, choreography, and presentation. If nothing else, if Elena, Irina, Sasha, or lest we forget Fumie, AP, Onda (is she recovered from her injuries?), Kostner, Ota, and others, really do crank up the "total package" (sorry, overused phrase infraction) it would be SO exciting to watch! Though I still think Michelle would rise to the occasion. I think she put a might big gap between herself and everybody else with the improvements we saw last season but that were no doubt in the making for many years. Of course somebody else could have had major improvements in the making too. Our nerves be damned! I hope they all skate magnificently.

And poo on me for leaving out Piel, Heyang, Icenut, Windspirit, Red Dog, and SkateCynic in my big HI! in my previous thread. Whip me, beat me, have the "Queer Eye" Fab Five make me over!
:eek:Rgirl:eek:
 
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