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Thread: Michelle and that elusive 3/3

  1. #31
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    Originally posted by Lucy25
    I think I have read this question every year for at least the past three! And we all know how those years have turned out.

    Personally, I don't care if she *wins* Worlds in 2004 or ever again. It will be awesome for her just to medal.

  2. #32
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    and how could one ever forget that DC Worlds!!

    Joe

  3. #33
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    Originally posted by Joesitz
    Thanks for the info Bynx. Every little mystery solved is something with regard to Ms "Kwan's to be alone attitude"

    If she does do a 3t/3t, that will be enough to satisfy the requirement.

    Joe
    This year the Code of Points will not be used at worlds, only the GP events. Since she is not doing them there is no reason for her to change her programs to get the maximum points under the COP when she is not even going to be judged on it. If they use it for the Olympics, though, then there is an issue!

  4. #34
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    LOL, I agree Lucy, I love this thread mainly because it seems to pop up in EVERY off season since 1998! Personally, I could care less if Michelle ever did another 3/3 again. Would it excite me beyond belief? Yes. Simply because it would make her that much better. I also am seeing it as someone else did earlier in the thread...if focusing on 3/3s takes the life out of her programs like it did in 2002, forget about it. She was energetic and full of dramatic fire this year. If she's looking to collect more titles, yes she should incorporate a 3/3...if she's skating for pure enjoyment and wanting to see where that takes her, WHO CARES! I just remember the strain that began to show in her skating during the Olympic year and I never want that for her again.

  5. #35
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    thanks for the info Doria. No COP at Nats or Worlds! Interesting, but I think the elusive Kwan just might throw in a 3x3 to show she is competitive. It's immaterial to me, but who really knows MK? Maybe, that Williams guy.

    Joe

  6. #36
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    Michelle and that elusive 3/3

    I think the biggest "ace" Michelle has up her sleeve is her consistency. She is a solid skater and the judges are aware of her ability to "stay on her feet." It's great to see skaters taking risks and uping the ante, but sometimes it is costly.

    If Michelle skates with the flow and conviction she skated with last season, I kind of doubt the 3/3 will "make or break" her.

    I have been a skater and around skating for many years and Michelle is the most conistent female skater, I have ever seen. I have never gotten onto the "gushing" Michelle bandwagon, but I really respect her for her consitency. It's amazing.

  7. #37
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    First of all, a big HI! to Twinny, Show, Lad, Doris, Joe, Bronzey, Mzheng, Excidra, Mathman, GrGranny, Eltamina, and all those I'm sure I missed. You are reading my very first post on my new (well, newish) iBook using, da da da daaah! Mac OSX or Jaguar! For kewl! Though frankly it does things that scare me, I don't want to get off this most unique topic

    Here's what I think about Michelle and the 3/3: I hope she does not try to do one. I have not a molecule of doubt that she could do one, but here's my reason, or I should say reasons, why I hope she sticks to 3/2s -- the hip injuries and/or surgeries of:
    Tara Lipinski
    Jennifer Kirk
    Naomi Nari Nam
    Deanna Stellato
    Rudi Galindo
    Alexei Yagudin...
    and the hips just keep on comin'.

    Although my tone is facetious, I'm dead serious. I strongly believe that the seemingly exponential increase in hip injuries among elite skaters is due to the increase in demande for 3/3s, 4/3s, 4/3/2s, and so on. I don't have any stats, but golly, were ANY young elite skaters having such hip problems ten years ago pre 3/3s for the ladies and 4/3s for the men? Not that I can recall and certainly not in these numbers. And these are just the skaters we know about.

    Now if skaters were able to use the hinged skate boot, which according to researchers with the American College of Sports Medicine, should spread out the landing forces of the jump more evenly throughout the ankle, knee, hip, and lower back without so much force and torque focused on the hip. However I still think certain jump combos, like 3lp/3lp are going to be killer on that take-off/landing hip no matter what kind of high-tech skate they come up with.

    Last season I heard that Michelle started practicing her 3t/3t but she started having hip pain and thus stopped -- wisely, IMO. Although I agree with Mathman that the COP might make 3/3s more necessary to win, my hope is that the judges will be intelligent enough to give full and duly noted points for all the other elements in the COP if they are performed extraordinarily well, which I think Michelle did last season across the board. (Hmm, "judges" and "intelligent" -- oxymoron?) I think of comparing a Michelle LP with six or seven exquisitely executed jumps consisting of 3s and 3/2s along with the high quality and graceful footwork, speed, ice coverage, musicality, edges, overall balance of the choreography, and on and on to an Elena Sokolova program with two 3/3s and three other 3s that have only mediocre to okay execution levels and a list of other elements that may reach the good but not great level.

    Judge Rgirl gives the win to Michelle over Elena in that situation because in short, I don't think one or even two 3/3s in the midst of a program that is several notches below a Michelle program without a 3/3 should win, assuming Michelle's choreography, skating, and performance are up to what they were last year. To me, especially if Michelle goes even further in the direction she started perfecting last season, the whole is so much greater than the sum of its parts that I feel the judges should use the COP to reward that over a two 3/3 program where the whole is less than the sum of its parts.

    If Irina is hungry this season and is able to put her heart and soul into a well choreographed program plus hit a 3/3, then I can see her being a possible challenge to Michelle. But as much as I love Irina's skating when she's got the fires burning and her technique in order, I just have a gut feeling that since her mother's illness Irina's spirit is going more in the direction of heart and home, which is perfectly understandable, IMO.

    As for what improvements the other ladies will show up with, well, just as every year we ask "What about Michelle and the 3/3?" we also say every year, "The ladies from (fill in country) are really hot this year!" or "This is going to be so-and-so's breakthrough year!" And true, some year it will be some skater's breakthrough year. After all, Michelle has had several breakthrough years and Sokolova had a breakthrough year about five years after she was considered out of the game. OTOH, Sokolova's performance at '03 Worlds, and possibly Russian Nats (I can't recall) was really the only international competition at which she skated that well. Not a thing against Cupcake, since she could easily build on that momentum, but the point is, except for Elena, nobody else consistently delivered their top stuff. Sasha had a great GPF and some much improved from '02 GP events; Fumie had great parts of her SP and LP, just not all at the same event; Kostner had an impressive Euros but didn't have another good competition all season; AP is a mystery because of the domino effect of missing Cup of Russia; Jenny's hip is a problem; and the list goes on and I know I've left people out that are of the calibre for people to say, "Rgirl! How could you have left out (fill in name)?!"

    Do I want even stronger choreography and performances from Michelle this year? Of course. Do I think they must include a 3/3 to be not only stronger but World Champ level best? No. I do not think Michelle needs a 3/3 to win Nationals, Worlds, or anything else she enters. I think every other aspect of her skating is now truly so superior to everyone else's that as I said before, the totality of what she does more than makes up for the lack of a 3/3. Things may change if some of the other ladies up the ante on not only the 3/3s but also on everything else, but my feeling is that Michelle is still on an upward trajectory with her skating, which I think means that at least for this season, everyone else will be chasing her.

    About a month to go and THEY'RE OFF!
    Rgirl -- that's 5395 characters long -- that's characters, not words
    Last edited by Rgirl; 08-28-2003 at 04:04 AM.

  8. #38
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    more michelle info.

    davesato coversation with some MKFer's

    Anna,
    The Paramount Iceland is in Paramount. It's off the 91 freeway and Paramount Ave (Blvd?).

    NYMKFAN51,
    I assume Michelle does most of her training in Arrowhead or maybe in Harbor City. Rumor has it that she's been spotted at Harbor City a few times in the past.


    Speaking of Michelle, a co-worker was at a mall near Michelle's home and saw her in the parking lot going into a store. He mentioned he was a fan and that he knew a bigger fan who is a member of a webring of some sort. Michelle said, "Oh, you must mean the MK Forum. Tell him I said Hi."

    Schez,
    The store was nothing fancy. On the same lines as a grocery store. If it were Sak's or something like that, I can just see how many people would start shopping at Sak's. LOL

    I know the name of the store and thought it would be giving too much info to mention that store name.

    NYMKFAN,
    Harbor City is a lot closer to Manhattan Beach than Paramount and Harbor City is a whole lot closer to Torrance where the Parents live, but the drive time for Michelle is about the same. Michelle can hop on the freeway and be in Paramount in about the same amount of time it would take her to drive surface streets to Harbor City.

    Michelle was practicing at Paramount. At least, that is the location she trained at last year. Paramount was also the training location for Peggy Fleming, when she competed.

    Maybe, this year, Michelle will be a Harbor City since it it closer to where she lives. However, like DaveSato said, Paramount might be just a close timewise with the stops and starts vs. driving the freeway.

    Anyway, doesn't Michelle's sister Karen coach at Harbor City?

  9. #39
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    RGirl is back! I was wondering where you had gone to! I agree that Elena has much to work on (choreography, spirals, etc.) but I think she's a superior skater now compared to seasons past. I thought her "Samson and Delilah" SP at Worlds this year was wonderful. She really had good flow and so much energy...if she went more in that direction (musically, etc.) I think she could become more of a threat. Her LP was just too heavy for her and the choreography was surprisingly bland and sparse. I think Irina is the real wild card this season. Will she pull a Michelle and come back completely renewed and invigorated? It could happen. I'd love to see a Michelle/Irina/Elena/Sasha showdown at Worlds. That would be so exciting...not to mention pure hell and torment for my nerves! So, if Michelle is skating for enjoyment, I say let her do as she pleases. All this 3/3 fuss usually turns out not to mean much (LOL, unless its an Olympic competition!).

  10. #40
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    Originally posted by BronzeisGolden
    So, if Michelle is skating for enjoyment, I say let her do as she pleases.
    ITA. Plus I want to see Michelle skating healthy and uninjured for as long as possible and I think 3/3s is a negative impact on that. And yes, it would be great to see someone challenge Michelle in terms of overall skills, choreography, and presentation. If nothing else, if Elena, Irina, Sasha, or lest we forget Fumie, AP, Onda (is she recovered from her injuries?), Kostner, Ota, and others, really do crank up the "total package" (sorry, overused phrase infraction) it would be SO exciting to watch! Though I still think Michelle would rise to the occasion. I think she put a might big gap between herself and everybody else with the improvements we saw last season but that were no doubt in the making for many years. Of course somebody else could have had major improvements in the making too. Our nerves be damned! I hope they all skate magnificently.

    And poo on me for leaving out Piel, Heyang, Icenut, Windspirit, Red Dog, and SkateCynic in my big HI! in my previous thread. Whip me, beat me, have the "Queer Eye" Fab Five make me over!
    :oRgirl:o
    Last edited by Rgirl; 08-29-2003 at 03:11 AM.

  11. #41
    Arm Chair Skate Fan show 42's Avatar
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    RGirl, a great big "right back attcha" hi......glad to see you back. As for a triple-triple for the coming season.........I guess we'll wait and see what Michelle has planned. Her skating is so "fine", she could be skating on "flats" and still wow the crowd..........42

  12. #42
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    Hi, rgirl. wellcome back. I've missed your long posts.

    ITA with your first back post. And, IMO, had CoP used in 2003 worlds, even Elena did 2 3/3 in her LP, Michelle would still come ahead of her. And we weren't hear many Elena wuz robbered. The points will speek for itself.

  13. #43
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    Hi Rgirl.

    You have been missed as you were during your hiatus last summer. I haven't been visiting every day either. Hope you did ok in the Blackout.

    Back on Topic. A lot of people are citing the 3-3 and the quads of the up-and-comers. Will they make a difference? Too early to tell. A lot of them are just entering puberty - what happens with their bodies could make a difference. True - many of them are Asians who generally aren't overly endowed, but it does happen. Also, as Rgirl and others have mentioned, there is the injury factor. So - since no one has proven a consistent 3-3, artistry and consistency, I think MK does not have to have the 3-3 this year. The overall quality of her skills and presentation should not be ignored because skating is not just about jumping - as much as some would like it to be.

    Should be training a 3-3? Most definitely - just in case one of the other contenders ups their consistency and artistry, she's gotta be ready. It doesn't have to be a difficult one - nothing wrong with 3T-3T.

    Will she need one if she goes to Olys? Again, she's probably gonna have to up the ante since it's a lot harder to improve in other areas. Even judges get tired of seeing the same.

    Seems a bit wishy washy, but that's the way I see it.

  14. #44
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    HI! Mzheng. Didn't mean to leave you out. Yes, I'm sure a lot of people "missed" my pithy posts

    Show, Thanks for the "back atcha." Our neighborhood was lucky in general as was I during what is now being called the blog. I was home when it happened, not on a subway, thank goodness. Those poor people. But the blog did mess up the great shot of George Clooney's backside in the "Solaris" DVD I was watching at the time. Uh, what does this have to do with Michelle and her 3/3? With her new training regimen, Michelle looks about as buff as Clooney, but of course in a feminine way. And perhaps now that she's had a year of that fabulous off-ice training, doing a 3/3 will be more easily achieved without pain.

    Heyang, From what I read, it was practicing the 3t/3t last hear that was giving Michelle hip pain so she stopped -- wisely so, IMO. But see above re possible impact of off-ice training.

    However, in general, I think that even with the best on and off ice training in the world, 3/3s are going to continue to cause skaters to have serious hip injuries at younger and younger ages. The only thing I can see helping is the hinged skate boot. I think either the ISU or a major federation, like the USFSA, should get together with the American College of Sports Medicine and get some reliable data on hip injuries in skaters relative to 3/3s for ladies and 4/3s and 4/3/2s for men. I think they should also do more studies on the hinged skate boot. For me it's not about too much jumping in figure skating, although I think a seven-triple program should be the maximum and I much prefer programs with a balance of elements. Rather, it's about the health, quality of life, and longevity of skaters sustaining serious hip injuries because of outdated equipment (skate boots) being used to do jump combos that destroy hips. People with hip injuries, even if they've had good hip replacement surgery, still die sooner on average than those who don't have such injuries. Of course skating is a tough sport and injuries are inevitable. But I think the ISU and federations should be doing everything they can to ensure the health and safety of skaters. To me, it's along the lines of child abuse to have 12-13-year-old skaters doing 3/3s and 4/3s on boots that allow so much of the landing force to be focused on the hip. Skaters want to push the envelope of what is physically possible and I'm all for it, but please, it's the duty of the ISU and federations to see that skaters have the right equipment with which to do this and to instruct coaches in the destructiveness of overtraining jumps, especially multirotational combination jumps. Yoshie Onda is an unfortunate example. Like Tara, she loved to jump and is a natural jumper, yet she didn't even make it to worlds in her first year on the senior circuit where she was a contender.

    Will it take a contingent of hip injured skaters to do a "limp" demonstration at next year's Worlds to get the ISU and big federations to take notice? I'm afraid it may.
    Rgirl

  15. #45
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    It will be nice to watch the "seasoned ladies" skate their routines. they may not jump themselves into a frenzy but, oh, how beautifully, they will flow. Like the "old babes" in ballet, I really enjoy the same in figure skating.

    Come on Michelle, Irina, Elena, Jen Robinson, Fumie.

    Joe

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