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Thread: A possible solution to underrotations?

  1. #31
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    ^ I think "pre-rotation" means still being on the ice when you start counting the revolutions. A skater might jump from a back edge but not actually leave the ice until he is facing almost forward, then do 3 and a half revolutions in the air and call it a quad.

    The consensus seems to be that for edge jumps there is no other way to do it, so a triple loop, for instance is barely more than 2 complete revolutions in the air (as Antman writes above).

    The rules seem to allow this, except for the toe-loop. If you pre-rotate your toe-loop too much (so that it takes off forward and rotates only two and a half times in the air), then it is downgraded to a toe-Axel. Mao Asada used to have this problem, until last year.

    The one thing you can't do is pre-rotate half a turn, then do three complete revolutions. If you did that, you would land facing forward and fall on your face.
    Last edited by Mathman; 08-12-2008 at 06:29 PM.

  2. #32
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mskater93 View Post
    How, then, would you generate the rotation if the jump didn't pre-rotate? From a physics standpoint, the rotation has to start on the ice in order to achieve anything more than one rotation.
    Very true. Only Surya Bonnaly can do a double axel from a standstill, and actually air turn 2.5 times. While that is a difficult feat, she would only get the base value for the jump in CoP scoring.

    And cheating goes on in other forms of Dance. Not easy to jump from a standstill. The more speed, the easier the jump but you better be clean on the jump because it could be a 'harder they fall.'

    Combos show the most prerotations than single jumps but It is such an audience pleaser, it doesn't matter.

  3. #33
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    5 different names for a toe axel? Hmmm....

  4. #34
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    Didn't Evan Lycacek also start one of his programs with essentially a standing double axel? Was 2001, his first season as a senior at nationals. Started the program with a bang.

  5. #35
    At the rink. Again. mskater93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    ^ I think "pre-rotation" means still being on the ice when you start counting the revolutions. A skater might jump from a back edge but not actually leave the ice until he is facing almost forward, then do 3 and a half revolutions in the air and call it a quad.

    The rules seem to allow this, except for the toe-loop. If you pre-rotate your toe-loop too much (so that it takes off forward and rotates only two and a half times in the air), then it is downgraded to a toe-Axel. Mao Asada used to have this problem, until last year.
    Actually, you CAN pre-rotate the toe loop and get credit, it just depends on HOW you pick. If you pick it like a pivot or Makurka and kick up and over, you get the same pre-rotation as a Salchow and it counts as a toe loop (see Yuna Kim's toe loops). If you pick out away from the plant foot and turn forward-and-then some on that toe pick (usually ~ 3/4 rotation on the pick before lifting off the ice) it is called a toe Axel because that is essentially what you are doing and the "<" is called.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Binthere View Post
    Didn't Evan Lycacek also start one of his programs with essentially a standing double axel? Was 2001, his first season as a senior at nationals. Started the program with a bang.
    I think his first gold in USNats was showing a wrong edge takeoff for the 3A but the Caller didn't catch it. At least that's what I saw in a youtube that another fan posted.

  7. #37
    Yeah! Lets get this party started. enlight78's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    ^ I think "pre-rotation" means still being on the ice when you start counting the revolutions. A skater might jump from a back edge but not actually leave the ice until he is facing almost forward, then do 3 and a half revolutions in the air and call it a quad.

    The consensus seems to be that for edge jumps there is no other way to do it, so a triple loop, for instance is barely more than 2 complete revolutions in the air (as Antman writes above).

    The rules seem to allow this, except for the toe-loop. If you pre-rotate your toe-loop too much (so that it takes off forward and rotates only two and a half times in the air), then it is downgraded to a toe-Axel. Mao Asada used to have this problem, until last year.

    The one thing you can't do is pre-rotate half a turn, then do three complete revolutions. If you did that, you would land facing forward and fall on your face.
    Since some pre-rotation are needed for certain jumps, the pressure sensors wouldn't be a good idea. Or COP can still use a pressure sensors and redifine what qualifies as a single,double, etc edge jumps.I'll go for the latter.I think having a combination of pressure sensors and high speed cameras will do the trick. The sensors will allow the program to know when the skater exactly leaves the ice. And having two sensors one near the back and another near the two pick. The program can also uses the sensors like motion capture to determine the revolutions. The sensors will aslo make it easier to detect two-footed landings.

  8. #38
    it's olympic season :D bethissoawesome's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mskater93 View Post
    Actually, you CAN pre-rotate the toe loop and get credit, it just depends on HOW you pick. If you pick it like a pivot or Makurka and kick up and over, you get the same pre-rotation as a Salchow and it counts as a toe loop (see Yuna Kim's toe loops). If you pick out away from the plant foot and turn forward-and-then some on that toe pick (usually ~ 3/4 rotation on the pick before lifting off the ice) it is called a toe Axel because that is essentially what you are doing and the "<" is called.
    This is a good video to demonstrate how Yuna pre-rotates on the ice for her toe loop (by method mentioned above) but is still given positive GOE's...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90bKBt4k26Y

  9. #39
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    You all saw the instant replays in slo mo at the Olys. This is what Figure Skating needs. How expensive could it be? A camera shooting to the back of the skater will tell all wrong edge takeoffs and under rotations. But when?

  10. #40
    Custom Title antmanb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bethissoawesome View Post
    This is a good video to demonstrate how Yuna pre-rotates on the ice for her toe loop (by method mentioned above) but is still given positive GOE's...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90bKBt4k26Y
    Sorry but the point of the clips in the youtube video are about UNDER rotation on the landing not pre-rotation on the take off. Kim has perfect text book technique on the take off of the toe loop - there is no pre-rotation on the toe pick on take off and the leg comes through exactly as it should.

    Ant

  11. #41
    At the rink. Again. mskater93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by antmanb View Post
    Sorry but the point of the clips in the youtube video are about UNDER rotation on the landing not pre-rotation on the take off. Kim has perfect text book technique on the take off of the toe loop - there is no pre-rotation on the toe pick on take off and the leg comes through exactly as it should.

    Ant
    Bethieisawesome was responding to my statement since someone said there is no allowable pre-rotatation on the toe loop or else it's a toe Axel and I explained the difference in take off methods and what is allowable. She showed what an acceptable "pre-rotation" on the toe loop is with the video. I was responding to mathman's comment and it's about six posts back...

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by bethissoawesome View Post
    This is a good video to demonstrate how Yuna pre-rotates on the ice for her toe loop (by method mentioned above) but is still given positive GOE's...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90bKBt4k26Y
    Thanks for the clip. I really can't say the toeloop was underrotated according to the 45% rule. I really have to rely on the judges' decisions.

    It was a combo, so maybe the first part was perceived as + GoEs.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    Thanks for the clip. I really can't say the toeloop was underrotated according to the 45% rule. I really have to rely on the judges' decisions.
    Indeed.

    OT but I'm really sorry that there are some youtube users trying to besmirch Yuna's reputation. If they want to talk about under-rotation, fine. But dragging Yuna into that? Seriously?
    Come on. There are so many obvious example of under-rotation out there (but I won't name any because I don't want to hurt their fans' feelings.)
    I even saw someone posted Yuna's taking off moment as if it's her landing moment and ironically it proves she doesn't do either pre-rotation nor under-rotation.
    Why do they do that?? They want to get even because the one they are rooting for has some technical flaws or what?? So juvenile.
    Last edited by gourry; 08-19-2008 at 03:01 PM.

  14. #44
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    I think I was a bit emotional on my post above. I was just a bit annoyed by some youtube users nowadays. Sorry.

    I honestly doubt if the sensor on boots is applicable but I like the idea.
    I read all posts on this thread and suddenly came to wonder what if a skater attempted a triple jump with terrible under-rotation and landed with severe over-rotation after around 2 and a half airturns. How is it going to be marked? Is it going to be dinged both for under-rotation and over-rotation? Or is it going to be ratified as a triple jump?
    Last edited by gourry; 08-19-2008 at 03:50 PM.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by gourry View Post
    I think I was a bit emotional on my post above. I was just a bit annoyed by some youtube users nowadays. Sorry.

    I honestly doubt if the sensor on boots is applicable but I like the idea.
    I read all posts on this thread and suddenly came to wonder what if a skater attempted a triple jump with terrible under-rotation and landed with severe over-rotation after around 2 and a half airturns. How is it going to be marked? Is it going to be dinged both for under-rotation and over-rotation? Or is it going to be ratified as a triple jump?
    Watch Lambiel and his notorious 3A next season. He often overrotates it causing him to land on his heel. Landing on the heel will cause a skater to fall back.

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