The gymnastics thread

[fairly4]

i didn't see it. but we shouldn't complain about ages. after all tara was (grandfathered in by being too young). all the youngsters we have. we just take it for granted their that age . but do we really know especially for other countries outside us, maybe even canada. just fudging by a few months makes a difference in whether the athelete is elligible or not. figures skating by 1st of july, who knows back in the past--they wasn't officially age elligible so they fudge by a few months to make them elligible. only we didn't know it. they didn't cover it. i find it interesting nytimes did it about Chinese(asian) and no other country. maybe the others covered it better that is all. i find it interesting that it is okay for the US to cheat but not other countries. well that is the ny times and us for you. do as we say not as we do. US will do whatever it takes to win -even cheat. you end justifies means.
also with all the supposed injuries the us girls have, they can be (juiced) take coritizone shots and be legitate to help the chances at gold for a team medal.
it is okay as long as the federation, ioc, head of gymastics knows about it ahead of time. so let the Cheating begins.

[ChrisH]

A fall is .8 deduction (Im pretty sure) In gymnastics that is a huge hit depending on what the start value was.

Okay.

Thank goodness nastia had a rediculous start value for bars.?17 The rest of her routine was so perfect she was able to make the final. I have never seen her fall on her dismount in competition. She even has "artistry" on bars. Check out her perfectly straight body and her toes.

Yes, Nastia has noticeably better artistry than the other gymnasts. How is artisty supposed to affect the scores? Somewhat related, I wish I knew more about acrobatics.

[Ginask8s]

Artistry is in the 2nd mark or execution score. It is admired by judges, but it seems that difficulty will always prevail. If you can have high start values on most of your routines, hit them and have better presentation it will help. You will see girls who dont look as elegant win because of difficulty.and power. They love power in gymnastics. (Kind of like they love Kostners speed!) Gymnasts are FIERCE.

Also, if anyone has the chance check out Rhythmic gymnastics at the olympics. It has funky judging with the code of points, but has WONDERFUL dance and athleticism. Also, the dresses are AMAZING These young women give new meaning to flexibility.

[dizzydi7]

Yesterday afternoon I watched an interview with Bela Kyroli who was discussing the underage Chinese girls. He stated that it is a well-known fact among the gymnastic community that the Chinese are using falsified passports. He said nothing has been done about it that the authorities ignore it. When the Chinese have been approached regarding this issue they will not respond. They remain silent and will not discuss it. His opinion is that the age restriction should be lifted. He personally doesn't feel there should be an age restriction in the first place. His point of view is that his objection is not against the Chinese but rather it's unfair when other countries DO adhere to the age rule as it may be keeping their best gymnast from competing. That's the point that I find unfair.

Finding fault with the U.S. and bringing up Tara Lipinski has nothing to do with this issue. It looks to me like the women and men representing the U. S. in gymnastics at this Olympics are age appropriate.

Dizzy

[museksk8r]

Yesterday afternoon I watched an interview with Bela Kyroli who was discussing the underage Chinese girls. He stated that it is a well-known fact among the gymnastic community that the Chinese are using falsified passports. He said nothing has been done about it that the authorities ignore it. When the Chinese have been approached regarding this issue they will not respond. They remain silent and will not discuss it. His opinion is that the age restriction should be lifted. He personally doesn't feel there should be an age restriction in the first place. His point of view is that his objection is not against the Chinese but rather it's unfair when other countries DO adhere to the age rule as it may be keeping their best gymnast from competing. That's the point that I find unfair.

Finding fault with the U.S. and bringing up Tara Lipinski has nothing to do with this issue. It looks to me like the women and men representing the U. S. in gymnastics at this Olympics are age appropriate.

Dizzy

Well said, Dizzy. All the USA gymnastics commentators and figure skating commentators have gone on record stating they feel that all gymnastics and figure skating championships should be open to all ages with the belief that if these young athletes from all around the world have the skill and desire to compete, they should be able to do so. They are training these difficult elements every day in their practices and competing them at their Nationals and on the Grand Prix circuit, so what's the difference from doing it at Worlds and Olympics? The risk in getting hurt in sports exists for ALL ages who participate. The advanced skaters can rely on their experience and wisdom while the younger skaters can rely on their carefree exuberance and fearlessness, so there are advantages to competing "young" and "old."

In Tara's time, the strict age regulations were not in place by the ISU, so for anyone to bring her up in this discussion is a moot point. It was perfectly within the rules for a 13 year old Michelle Kwan to compete in the 1994 Worlds, for a 13 year old Tara Lipinski to compete in the 1996 Worlds, and for a 13 year old Sarah Hughes to compete in the 1999 Worlds.

I agree with Dick and Peggy that the real problem exists in the grueling schedule that many of the figure skaters compete under. Doing up to 10 competitions in 1 season is a really tall order for a lot of these athletes. It's really gotten out of control!

[dorispulaski]

also with all the supposed injuries the us girls have, they can be (juiced) take coritizone shots and be legitate to help the chances at gold for a team medal.
it is okay as long as the federation, ioc, head of gymastics knows about it ahead of time. so let the Cheating begins.

This seems highly unlikely.

For one thing, if US gymnasts were cheating-i.e. feigning injuries to get cortisone shots-.you would have seen Peshek and Memmel competing in all their usual event in the qualifying round. In fact, they only both competed on the uneven bars--if they were doing it for advantage, I would at least expect to see Memmel on vault and one or the other of them on beam and floor so that the worst score could be dropped.

Not to say that a US athlete or team has never cheated, but this is a truly bad example and borders on the libelous.

[sillylionlove]

If you read the article of the interview...he didn't just point out China. It said that it has been well know in Romania, Russia, China and some other countries, that they falsify documents to change the age. He said that they had the ability to do so and often did so. Remember, he did coach Romania way back when.

Here are some quotes from the article which can be found on nbcolympics.com

Karolyi is originally from Romania, and he says falsifying documents is a common practice in totalitarian regimes such as Romania, Russia and other former Soviet bloc nations.....

What kind of slap in the face is this?" he asked. "They are 12, 14 years old, max. And they line them up for the world ... and having the government back them. .....

"Since they forced an age limit, it has gotten worse and worse. The FIG is running away from the age problem. They set an age limit and now they can't control it." .....

The solution, he said, is to not have any age limit. He believes if a gymnast is good enough to earn a spot at the Olympics or world championships, that athlete deserves to go. He said some juniors today are just as proficient as the age-eligble competitors. Nastia Liukin, for example, would certainly have made the squad for the Athens Games four years ago had she not been 14.....

It was very interesting and I suggest that if you get a chance to read it. He was also on television talking about this...I think it was during primetime lineup of the Olympics with Bob Costas the other night. I think that many sports are struggling with this same type of issue right now. Children train earlier and harder now then they ever did before in sports.I think that this will be an issue for a long time to come.

[sillylionlove]

OOPS....Congrats to the men for winning the bronze medal in the team competition last night. They really rocked it. No one expected them to do that well.

[Tinymavy15]

Dizzy I agree about the age of the Chinese ladies team. I couldn't believe it when the NBC commentator said that the girls had to be 16 years old to compete. How can they get away with that? It is so obvious most of those girls are under the required age.

tell me about it. I know that people from that part of the world are smaller and slighter by nature, but some of these girls cannot be any more than 12. Shawn Johnson looks pretty tiny herself, but I trust the United States to follow the rules.

also, the score do not really seem to match the performances. Shawn's flawless balance beam routine scored not much better than her teammates who didn't look half as comfortable.

[Medusa]

The risk in getting hurt in sports exists for ALL ages who participate.

Oh yes, the risk is there for all ages. But an 11 year old (or 4 to 6 year old, sometimes the heavy training starts back then) kid doesn't have a choice. An 18 year old does.

Well said, Dizzy. All the USA gymnastics commentators and figure skating commentators have gone on record stating they feel that all gymnastics and figure skating championships should be open to all ages with the belief that if these young athletes from all around the world have the skill and desire to compete, they should be able to do so. They are training these difficult elements every day in their practices and competing them at their Nationals and on the Grand Prix circuit, so what's the difference from doing it at Worlds and Olympics? The risk in getting hurt in sports exists for ALL ages who participate. The advanced skaters can rely on their experience and wisdom while the younger skaters can rely on their carefree exuberance and fearlessness, so there are advantages to competing "young" and "old."

YES! Let's go and support the abuse and exploitation of young girls - so that they can do the most important thing in the world: win the medals. Fantastic idea. The Chinese girls are taken away from their homes at 5 to 11, they have no rights, zero protection - they are at everyone's mercy. If the Chinese go through so much trouble to build little soldier-athletes - then they should be at least rewarded with a change of the rules, so they can train their soldiers to peak even earlier and send them to international competitions long before all these pesky natural body changes set in.

And yes, I know that these athletes would train anyway. Yes, I know that there are inconsistent age rules that make no sense at all. But that is no reason at all to encourage even more abuse, even more unnatural training at a young age.

And I am not just talking about China, I am talking about other countries with organised high-performance sports, I am talking about overambitious parents in the US and in Europe, whose children are just as unprotected and at their parents' and coach's mercy as the baby athletes in China, North Korea etc. are. I am talking about a tiny little, completely insignificant thing called human rights. Children's rights. And these governments and sports organisations, and some parents and coaches are often ignoring these rights. The human rights movement worked for years and years to ensure that there are laws against child labour, laws to protect the child from abuse and exploitation - and we throw it all out of the window - for medals.

You can't vote before you are 18, you can't get drunk before you are 16, you can't drive a car and you can't smoke before you are 18, you have limited control about the money you earn (depending on the age) - but apparently people think that you can represent your country (and sometimes make a political statement through that) in the biggest sports event ever, that you can make the decision to ruin your body and health before you can even read, that you can represent and endorse companies, despite the fact that legally it's not the baby athlete's decision to make.

Gotta love this world. A world where you can be a superstar and a champion, and at the same time, little more than a slave.

[Spun Silver]

I stayed up till almost 6 am watching the men's gymnastics finals and guess I'll do that tonight too. The US team was incredible. What a story - the way they overcame the loss of their stars and medaled when nobody expected them too. They handed in some exciting routines. I just wish the coverage were more consistent - we only saw a few of the supposedly fabulous Chinese routines and only one or two of the Japanese and German. I could do with a lot more gymnastics and a lot less bikini ball, softball, etc.

As for the age restrictions - surely the point is to protect children from being used by their prestige-hungry governments. Obviously the flexible and probably starved young bodies of children training far away from their families CAN do amazing things - the question is what harm it does to body and spirit of the children. What might be ethical in a society where at least the children's families have a real choice and where there's a concept of children's rights is less so if the families are forced by poverty to surrender their kids and the kids are then completely under the control of their coaches (who are under the thumb of the government). Obviously too the Chinese government is getting away with breaking the age rules just because it can. Just like Russia is getting away with murdering Georgia. That doesn't make it right.

The Times had a column calling women's gymnastics child abuse but I think that argument is much weaker when the athletes are older. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/09/op...nastics&st=cse

PS: I guess Medusa and I were tapping the keys at the same time and along the same lines!

[museksk8r]

Oh yes, the risk is there for all ages. But an 11 year old (or 4 to 6 year old, sometimes the heavy training starts back then) kid doesn't have a choice. An 18 year old does.



YES! Let's go and support the abuse and exploitation of young girls - so that they can do the most important thing in the world: win the medals. Fantastic idea. The Chinese girls are taken away from their homes at 5 to 11, they have no rights, zero protection - they are at everyone's mercy. If the Chinese go through so much trouble to build little soldier-athletes - then they should be at least rewarded with a change of the rules, so they can train their soldiers to peak even earlier and send them to international competitions long before all these pesky natural body changes set in.

And yes, I know that these athletes would train anyway. Yes, I know that there are inconsistent age rules that make no sense at all. But that is no reason at all to encourage even more abuse, even more unnatural training at a young age.

And I am not just talking about China, I am talking about other countries with organised high-performance sports, I am talking about overambitious parents in the US and in Europe, whose children are just as unprotected and at their parents' and coach's mercy as the baby athletes in China, North Korea etc. are. I am talking about a tiny little, completely insignificant thing called human rights. Children's rights. And these governments and sports organisations, and some parents and coaches are often ignoring these rights. The human rights movement worked for years and years to ensure that there are laws against child labour, laws to protect the child from abuse and exploitation - and we throw it all out of the window - for medals.

You can't vote before you are 18, you can't get drunk before you are 16, you can't drive a car and you can't smoke before you are 18, you have limited control about the money you earn (depending on the age) - but apparently people think that you can represent your country (and sometimes make a political statement through that) in the biggest sports event ever, that you can make the decision to ruin your body and health before you can even read, that you can represent and endorse companies, despite the fact that legally it's not the baby athlete's decision to make.

Gotta love this world. A world where you can be a superstar and a champion, and at the same time, little more than a slave.

WOAH! To reiterate my original post, I specifically stated "those who have the skill AND DESIRE to compete should be able to." I do not at all support the exploitation of little girls to be treated as "little slaves" in order to win medals for their nations. Of course, it is vital to the well being of all these young athletes that they are surrounded by coaches and families whose primary concern are their health. The athletes and the people around them have a priority to always listen to what their bodies and minds are telling them in terms of their limitations and in terms of how much training and competition is too much. I do not at all support a world of promising talents burned out too young due to injuries, like Tara Lipinski and Deanna Stellato. Someone, namely Pat Lipinski, should have stepped in and stopped Tara from practicing 50 3loop+3loops a day.

Please don't put words in my mouth that I didn't say, thanks.

[Medusa]

WOAH! To reiterate my original post, I specifically stated "those who have the skill AND DESIRE to compete should be able to." I do not at all support the exploitation of little girls to be treated as "little slaves" in order to win medals for their nations.

And how do you determine that? How do you find out that some 12-year-old Chinese girl is skating at the biggest international events because she has the desire to skate and compete - or perhaps because the government is paying her poor parents a bit of money so they can afford a bit more than the general poor peasant? How do you find out that some 13-year-old American girl isn't just channelling her overambitious parents instead of her own desires? How do you determine that some 11-year-old Russian girl isn't just competing because she doesn't want to disappoint her parents and feels like she owes them to win because they sacrificed so much for her?

If you want to play the game like that - you need indepth psychological evaluations, of the girls, of the parents, the coaches. It would be best if a judge determines if a girl is "adult" enough for these kind of competitions and decisions. Constant psychological monitoring would be just as important - children change their opinions / moods / states of mind very often. All of this has to be done by independent international organisations with no conflicts of interest, by highly qualified personnel who are incorruptable and objective. If the ISU/people who want the age limit to fall/federations/governments can guarantee that - then I will be looking forward to see (then) 12-year-old Liza Tiktamisheva competing at L.A.

The Times had a column calling women's gymnastics child abuse but I think that argument is much weaker when the athletes are older. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/09/op...nastics&st=cse

That's one outstanding column.

[childfreegirl]

Does anyone know where I can find a list of all the Olympic medalists in gymnastics? I found a list of countries online but not the names. My mom and I were trying to remember the name of a gymnast from several Olys ago.

Thanks

[dutchherder]

Childfreegirl,

Here ya go:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ymnastics_(men)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...nastics_(women)