The gymnastics thread | Golden Skate

The gymnastics thread

Joined
Jun 21, 2003
It looks like gymnastics is taking the same approach to scoring as figure skating. It doesn't matter if you fall on your back on the dismount, fall off the balance beam or the uneven bars, or land out of bounds on the floor exercise -- as long as your routine has a lot of difficulty you will get a big score.

Bela Kaorolyi was just interviewed by Bob Costas and he said that the new scoring system was just a smoke screen to cover up cheating and bias on the part of the judges.
 
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Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll
Record Breaker
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Jun 27, 2003
it's just like skating, the old regime isn't going to like it, the new probably will

but everyone is going to have to get used to it like it or not.
 

passion

On the Ice
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Sep 17, 2005
I don't really know much about gymnastics, although I heard the commentator said the code of points has been critisized for decreasing the amount of artistry. (Although I'm not sure what artistry is or what it looks like in gymnastics). So if someone who knows about gymnastics can also explain that to me.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
It was kind of an eye-opener to me. I saw scores like 14.86 appear on the screen and I had no notion of what any of it meant. The commentators were not really helpful.

Yes, I could devote a few hundred hours to learning the scoring system, as I have in the case of figure skating. But I am not going to. Instead, I will just gradually lose interest in a sport that I found quite exciting back in the days when Olga Korbet and Nadia Commanici were going for a perfect ten.

I think that for both sports the new scoring systems are fine for the athletes and enthusiasts, bad for casual veiwers. When the audience can't tell who performed well and who performed poorly until the protocols come out, this just kills the whole notion of a spectator sport.
 

Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll
Record Breaker
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Jun 27, 2003
according to teh commentators you can still go for the perfect 10... but just in half the score...

With gymnastics it's a little easier, I think, because you can tell when a girl steps out, falls, or loses her balance... or when she just isn't doing as much difficulty

with figure skating you have SO MUCH in the way of moves in the field and "artistry" that it is much more subjective... at least that's my casual viewer of both (I can't tell you have of what skaters are doing or being judged on, much less how it works, so I guess I cound as the casual viewer IN THIS CASE) look at the sport

ETA - article addressing this very thing
 
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IDLERACER

Medalist
Joined
Jul 28, 2003
Was anybody watching this evening when somebody asked Tim Dagget about what type of vaults the women will be performing? His answer was:

"Alicia Sacramone has two huge ones." :rofl:

You can bet that within the next few hours, that's gonna be all over YouTube!

:laugh: :chorus: :laugh: :chorus: :laugh: :chorus: :laugh:
 

ChrisH

On the Ice
Joined
Oct 31, 2007
Well, they should definitely deduct more points for falling off the apparatus or for landing on your butt during the dismount. Degree of difficulty seemed to heavily outweigh cleanliness.

I don't mind the splitting up of the scores. A lot of the judged sports have some degree of difficulty score and some execution score. They just need to posts the scores, like they do with diving. Secret judging is so off-putting in a sports event.
 

dorispulaski

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Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
I liked that they left the option of a perfect score in the equivalent of the PCS--I think NBC should highlight that score a little better for the casual viewer, though, since that's the easiest thing to relate to.

I like that they show the scheduled difficulty mark because that's how it's easy to know who is doing something really difficult and who is not.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
^^^
Ditto. But, I was always under the impression that Tumbling was to inlude dancing (for the ladies). The Chinese, imo, did not dance but concentrated on the tricks. The Russians did indeed dance their Tumbling tricks.
 

singerskates

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Jul 27, 2003
I think it's a good idea to go with COP for gymnastics but they should show the complete break down and have the networks spend some time explaining how it works showing a few moves telling people what it is worth and what gets a deduction and how much each type of deduction is worth. They should also put links up like CBC here in Canada does that show the information on their network websites. Then the casual audience will start to clue in.

As for the competitor, they now have a tool to craft their routines to get the highest possible mark they can personally achieve. And the competitor can track their success now just like we skaters who get marked with CPC, IJS and/or COP do. The competitor is no longer in the dark with what the judges thought of their routines.
 

dizzydi7

On the Ice
Joined
Oct 31, 2004
I do agree that the Chinese have little dancing in their floor routines. They seem to concentrate on tricks for these little girls. I wonder if this is because the Chinese seem much younger and immature than the gymnasts from other countries. A couple of those Chinese girls appear to be no more than 12 years old. I do believe that it is valid to suspect there has been some cheating in that area. No way to prove it.

Dizzy
 

SK8LUVR

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Oct 20, 2005
Dizzy I agree about the age of the Chinese ladies team. I couldn't believe it when the NBC commentator said that the girls had to be 16 years old to compete. How can they get away with that? It is so obvious most of those girls are under the required age.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
A couple of those Chinese girls appear to be no more than 12 years old. I do believe that it is valid to suspect there has been some cheating in that area. No way to prove it.
I thought the same thing, and the commentators mentioned it, too.

What struck me, however, is this. Evidently these 12-year-olds are better at gymnastics than the 17-year-olds that they beat out for a position on the team. Is it really true that 12-year-olds can do these tricks better than older teens? If so, then maybe we should just admit it and remove the age restriction altogether.
singerskates said:
They should also put links up like CBC here in Canada does that show the information on their network websites. Then the casual audience will start to clue in.
The casual audience could go to these sites and start to clue in, but what I am afraid of is that instead they will just change channels when gymnastics comes on.

My concern, especially with figure skating, is that the powers that be are allowing the sport to contract to a small circle of insiders -- athletes, coaches, officials of national federations and a few thousand Internet enthusiasts like us.
 
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ChrisH

On the Ice
Joined
Oct 31, 2007
Yes, a few of those juniors looked to be Bingwa Geng's age and younger than Caroline.

I think that the older US ladies are better than the younger Chinese ladies, but injuries are a factor. Rather than avoiding injuries, how quickly one can heal from injuries seems to be too important. I do think that the younger Chinese ladies will get better the next few years. At least I hope so rather than that they're bodies have become stunted. The Chinese men don't have an under-age problem.
 

Ginask8s

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Joined
Jan 27, 2008
Well, they should definitely deduct more points for falling off the apparatus or for landing on your butt during the dismount. Degree of difficulty seemed to heavily outweigh cleanliness.

I don't mind the splitting up of the scores. A lot of the judged sports have some degree of difficulty score and some execution score. They just need to posts the scores, like they do with diving. Secret judging is so off-putting in a sports event.

A fall is .8 deduction (Im pretty sure) In gymnastics that is a huge hit depending on what the start value was. Thank goodness nastia had a rediculous start value for bars.?17 The rest of her routine was so perfect she was able to make the final. I have never seen her fall on her dismount in competition. She even has "artistry" on bars. Check out her perfectly straight body and her toes.
 

fairly4

Medalist
Joined
Oct 28, 2007
i didn't see it. but we shouldn't complain about ages. after all tara was (grandfathered in by being too young). all the youngsters we have. we just take it for granted their that age . but do we really know especially for other countries outside us, maybe even canada. just fudging by a few months makes a difference in whether the athelete is elligible or not. figures skating by 1st of july, who knows back in the past--they wasn't officially age elligible so they fudge by a few months to make them elligible. only we didn't know it. they didn't cover it. i find it interesting nytimes did it about Chinese(asian) and no other country. maybe the others covered it better that is all. i find it interesting that it is okay for the US to cheat but not other countries. well that is the ny times and us for you. do as we say not as we do. US will do whatever it takes to win -even cheat. you end justifies means.
also with all the supposed injuries the us girls have, they can be (juiced) take coritizone shots and be legitate to help the chances at gold for a team medal.
it is okay as long as the federation, ioc, head of gymastics knows about it ahead of time. so let the Cheating begins.
 

ChrisH

On the Ice
Joined
Oct 31, 2007
A fall is .8 deduction (Im pretty sure) In gymnastics that is a huge hit depending on what the start value was.
Okay.


Thank goodness nastia had a rediculous start value for bars.?17 The rest of her routine was so perfect she was able to make the final. I have never seen her fall on her dismount in competition. She even has "artistry" on bars. Check out her perfectly straight body and her toes.
Yes, Nastia has noticeably better artistry than the other gymnasts. How is artisty supposed to affect the scores? Somewhat related, I wish I knew more about acrobatics.
 

Ginask8s

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 27, 2008
Artistry is in the 2nd mark or execution score. It is admired by judges, but it seems that difficulty will always prevail. If you can have high start values on most of your routines, hit them and have better presentation it will help. You will see girls who dont look as elegant win because of difficulty.and power. They love power in gymnastics. (Kind of like they love Kostners speed!) Gymnasts are FIERCE.

Also, if anyone has the chance check out Rhythmic gymnastics at the olympics. It has funky judging with the code of points, but has WONDERFUL dance and athleticism. Also, the dresses are AMAZING These young women give new meaning to flexibility.
 

dizzydi7

On the Ice
Joined
Oct 31, 2004
Gymnast Thread

Yesterday afternoon I watched an interview with Bela Kyroli who was discussing the underage Chinese girls. He stated that it is a well-known fact among the gymnastic community that the Chinese are using falsified passports. He said nothing has been done about it that the authorities ignore it. When the Chinese have been approached regarding this issue they will not respond. They remain silent and will not discuss it. His opinion is that the age restriction should be lifted. He personally doesn't feel there should be an age restriction in the first place. His point of view is that his objection is not against the Chinese but rather it's unfair when other countries DO adhere to the age rule as it may be keeping their best gymnast from competing. That's the point that I find unfair.

Finding fault with the U.S. and bringing up Tara Lipinski has nothing to do with this issue. It looks to me like the women and men representing the U. S. in gymnastics at this Olympics are age appropriate.

Dizzy
 

museksk8r

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Oct 31, 2006
Country
United-States
Yesterday afternoon I watched an interview with Bela Kyroli who was discussing the underage Chinese girls. He stated that it is a well-known fact among the gymnastic community that the Chinese are using falsified passports. He said nothing has been done about it that the authorities ignore it. When the Chinese have been approached regarding this issue they will not respond. They remain silent and will not discuss it. His opinion is that the age restriction should be lifted. He personally doesn't feel there should be an age restriction in the first place. His point of view is that his objection is not against the Chinese but rather it's unfair when other countries DO adhere to the age rule as it may be keeping their best gymnast from competing. That's the point that I find unfair.

Finding fault with the U.S. and bringing up Tara Lipinski has nothing to do with this issue. It looks to me like the women and men representing the U. S. in gymnastics at this Olympics are age appropriate.

Dizzy

Well said, Dizzy. All the USA gymnastics commentators and figure skating commentators have gone on record stating they feel that all gymnastics and figure skating championships should be open to all ages with the belief that if these young athletes from all around the world have the skill and desire to compete, they should be able to do so. They are training these difficult elements every day in their practices and competing them at their Nationals and on the Grand Prix circuit, so what's the difference from doing it at Worlds and Olympics? The risk in getting hurt in sports exists for ALL ages who participate. The advanced skaters can rely on their experience and wisdom while the younger skaters can rely on their carefree exuberance and fearlessness, so there are advantages to competing "young" and "old."

In Tara's time, the strict age regulations were not in place by the ISU, so for anyone to bring her up in this discussion is a moot point. It was perfectly within the rules for a 13 year old Michelle Kwan to compete in the 1994 Worlds, for a 13 year old Tara Lipinski to compete in the 1996 Worlds, and for a 13 year old Sarah Hughes to compete in the 1999 Worlds.

I agree with Dick and Peggy that the real problem exists in the grueling schedule that many of the figure skaters compete under. Doing up to 10 competitions in 1 season is a really tall order for a lot of these athletes. It's really gotten out of control!
 
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