Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 1 2 3 LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 43

Thread: "Waiting Your Turn"

  1. #16
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Posts
    696
    Originally posted by Mathman
    . Will this give Sasha an edge over AP in the coming season, especially in the Grand Prix events?

    Mathman
    IMO, Sasha has already been given the edge over AP at US Nationals. AP should have been 3rd, Sasha should not have been on the US World team.
    I do agree that Sasha has never had to "wait her turn." She earned 1st in the SP in '00. Many whined that she should've won gold that year. However,in reality, it was a split between Sasha and Sarah for 2nd place, and I really think Sarah was the only slighted by the US judges that year. If it really was "wait your turn" Sarah should've been the one to shine.
    Thanks to the US judges for placing Sarah 3rd at US Nationals in '02. She was slighted, and she showed them all.

  2. #17
    ~ Figure Skating Is My Passion ~ Ladskater's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Posts
    4,660

    "Waiting Your Turn"

    SkateFan4Life:

    Politics are a big part of figure skating and always have been. If you want to read more on the behind the scenes in the competitve world pick up any book penned by the great Toller Cranston. He gives a lot of "in sight" as to how the judges click. Yes, the old cliche' "waiting ones' turn" does come in to play, but every new skater knows he/she has to "break the ice" (no pun intended) with the judges. The ice dance discipline was the worst for this because of the politics. I don't think however, now it takes as long for the skaters to move up the ranks especially if they work on their technical aspects of their skating.

  3. #18
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    New York City
    Posts
    20,185
    I'm totally confused with rivalries. I know Sasha is the flavor of the month and anyone who competes against her is a rival. Duh. Of ourse.

    While it is true last years Nats was open for Golden Skate discussions on whether Sasha or AP should represent the US in Worlds, the fact is Sasha was held up. that's that. Over and out.

    Is there a rivalry? Probably but given Ms Cohen's views on figure skating she wants gold. No problem with me. so her rivalries are just about everyone. If for whatever reason she does not win or worse, not place, Sasha will be in a total deep depression. that is the course of a bravura skater. She's gutsy. She can take it.

    Let's look at Campbells without worrying about who is going to win. Look at it in terms of who could win the Nats. that's what counts.

    Joe

  4. #19
    Mr. Michelle Kwan Spirit's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Posts
    426
    This is an interesting topic.

    As a casual viewer for many years, I had always felt the opposite: that judges "punish" skaters they are familiar with for various things (remarks off the ice, not living up to the judges' expectations, countless twists in the political maze, etc.), whereas younger skaters, having had no chance to build up any such history, have "clean slates" and are therefore judged on their merits.

    I don't have any specific example, but I got this feeling somewhere along the way, vaguely (possibly) supported by the way 16-year-olds have won the last three Olympic gold medals. But it's not something I gave any serious thought to.

    (But then, I've also thought that well-balanced 16-year-olds are always in the perfect position to win big: they're old enough to perform well, yet too young to understand that they're supposed to be nervous.)

  5. #20
    Master Procrastinator
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Michigan, USA!
    Posts
    918
    In a lot of ways, I like the judging in gymnastics over skating, because in gymnastics you do not have to wait your turn. You can have newcomers like Chellsie Memmel, Hollie Vise, and Carly Patterson win gold and other medals at their first seniorr Worlds. I never hear the commentators say that a gymnsatics routine was great, but that the gymnast was new to the scene and would have to wait their turn.

    I think that Sasha has it all over AP in almost every way and that the USFSA feels the same way. Sasha is a better skater. Period.

    I don't think we can judge anything from Campbell's. Programs are brand new and the skaters are rusty.

  6. #21
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    U.S.A.!
    Posts
    140
    I think that's kind of unfair. I kind of saw that happen with Jenny Kirk and AP. They both skated beautifully (esp. at nationals) and should've gotten higher marks. I was really mad when AP only got 4th at the ABC International Figure Skating Challenge!

  7. #22
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    2,356
    Originally posted by Lucy25
    In a lot of ways, I like the judging in gymnastics over skating, because in gymnastics you do not have to wait your turn. You can have newcomers like Chellsie Memmel, Hollie Vise, and Carly Patterson win gold and other medals at their first seniorr Worlds. I never hear the commentators say that a gymnsatics routine was great, but that the gymnast was new to the scene and would have to wait their turn.
    I guess this should be attributed to the CoP used in gymnastics. The system leave much less room for judges to manuplate as compared to current the system used in FS judging.

  8. #23
    Tripping on the Podium
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Posts
    68
    Originally posted by Lucy25


    I think that Sasha has it all over AP in almost every way and that the USFSA feels the same way. Sasha is a better skater. Period.

    I don't think we can judge anything from Campbell's. Programs are brand new and the skaters are rusty.
    And is that a reason for bias protocol judging? I was disgusted by the fact that AP was outrightly ROBBED of her spot on the world team. It may be your opinion that Sasha is a better skaterin every way ( except for the fact AP is capable of 7 triple programs ), and it is exactly that attituded that leads to the over hype and holding up of skaters, like Sasha. AP blatnatly outskated Sasha, and there could be a very good case for her to be put over Sarah as well. I'm sick of the judges giving Sasha chance after chance, only for her to blow it. AP has out skated sasha before, and only got credit for it once. Skating is 10% talent and 90% consistencey, obviously Sasha is lacking in the latter. Skating should be judged by what happens out on the ice, not based on hype or reputation, and AP got slighted, because of reputation, she should have been on that world team PERIOD. END OF STORY.

  9. #24
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Posts
    179
    Originally posted by Smiley0884
    And is that a reason for bias protocol judging? I was disgusted by the fact that AP was outrightly ROBBED of her spot on the world team. It may be your opinion that Sasha is a better skaterin every way ( except for the fact AP is capable of 7 triple programs ), and it is exactly that attituded that leads to the over hype and holding up of skaters, like Sasha. AP blatnatly outskated Sasha, and there could be a very good case for her to be put over Sarah as well. I'm sick of the judges giving Sasha chance after chance, only for her to blow it. AP has out skated sasha before, and only got credit for it once. Skating is 10% talent and 90% consistencey, obviously Sasha is lacking in the latter. Skating should be judged by what happens out on the ice, not based on hype or reputation, and AP got slighted, because of reputation, she should have been on that world team PERIOD. END OF STORY.
    I totally agree with your setiments!
    AP should've w/o question been the third member on that team.
    She skated was and her artistry while not as flashy as Sasha's was very soft and elegant.

    That being said however, I see why the judges gave it to Sasha over AP. It's all about getting as many medals as possible and forming the best team that is most likely to do that. Sasha has more experience and has been a favorite of the national/international judges from the start. The national judges knew no matter how well AP skated she wouldn't get the marks she deserved. If she had skated well, she'd have been held down, if she had skated poorly, she would've been buried.

    I think medals are the name of the game and they no what the international panel is more likely to go for and thus they picked Sasha who if skates well get high marks and if she doesn't skate well, the judges have shown they won't be too harsh one her.

    They have their favorites,
    and right now AP is not one of them yet.

    I have faith that AP will get her just due.

  10. #25
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    2,356
    I agree those who said AP beat Sasha LP at Nats and a case can be made for AP also beat Sarah at LP at Nats. But if you take into account of the SP AP falled at SP and she was also got held up in SP. But again Sarah got held up in SP as well. It was Kirk and may be some of others who got held down on SP. Really beside Michelle got a clear win and cut. No other top lady (Sarah, Sasha, AP, Kirk, etc) really skated 2 clean in Nats.

    So in the case can go either way with the current judge system, judge always subconciousely go with the reputation. Like some one said in another thread, with CoP, if you instrested you can go element by element, point by point to caculate who should win. Right now most judges and fans go first to how many jumps, is there an 3/3, is there any fall when considering the tech marks.

  11. #26
    That being said however, I see why the judges gave it to Sasha over AP. It's all about getting as many medals as possible and forming the best team that is most likely to do that. Sasha has more experience and has been a favorite of the national/international judges from the start. The national judges knew no matter how well AP skated she wouldn't get the marks she deserved. If she had skated well, she'd have been held down, if she had skated poorly, she would've been buried.
    But that's just the problem. If judging were fair the US judges wouldn't HAVE to worry about who the intl judges liked becuase marks would be based soley on how someone skated that night, not on reputation.

    I always wondered if it would be any solution to make the picks for the Worlds team independent of your placement at Nats. Then perhaps it would keep the judges from holding up a skater in order to put them on the world team. The picks for the World team could be based on a number of factors including, placement at Nats, how you have performed during the current season, and past placements at Words. I'm not sure if its a good idea or not, but this way the people who skate best at Nats will be placed fairly, and also the country won't be forced to send skaters to Worlds who may have just won becasue everyone else screwed up or something.

  12. #27
    SkateFan4Life
    Guest
    My "Huh?" comment at the end of my post was really a sardonic comment. Guys, I've been a figure skating fan for several decades, and I am very much aware of the "waiting your turn" mindset that permeates this sport.

    When compulsory school figures were part of the competition, the judges could be counted on to use that phase as the "wait your turn" assignment of low marks. There are so many examples of wonderfully young, talented singles skaters who appeared at Worlds and/or Olympics for the first time and were sandblasted by the judges in the school figures. Just one example is the 1984 Winter Olympics. Tiffany Chin was the 16-year-old very talented American who had won the silver medal at Nationals (she had outstkated Rosalyn Sumners, but Roz was the reigning World and US champion so that was a bit of the 'wait your turn' situation as well). Tiffany came to the Olympics and skated solid school figures. Where did the judges place her? 12th!! Tiffany then placed 2nd in the short program and 3rd in the long program and finished fourth, just missing the podium. Had it not been for the school figures and/or if the judges had marked Tiffany's figures according to what she actually skated and not by her "new kid of the block" label -- Miss Chin would most likely have won a medal at the 1984 Olympics.


  13. #28
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    New York City
    Posts
    20,185
    To all you guys who thought AP over SC last year Nats, I do agree. But the USFSA has its mindset on the Worlds and it chooses who will place at Nats (so that they don't have to knock someone out of the worlds, if the judges do not come up with their choices).

    In 2003, the USFSA was thinking like so many others that it was the Year of Sasha (I know I was). She was not at her best THAT night (or day). The judges held her up. They had no choice, or face the ire of the USFSA for further judging. The Olympic Champ and the ever popular MK would also be held up if they had that bad hair day. But that's the way the Nats are judged. The 3 picks by the USFSA, will prevail unless there is a noticeable medltdown of one.

    I believe AP will be the one included with SC and MK this coming Nats. Jenny has to wait for a complete melt down of one of them at this Nats.

    I also believe similar circumstances will prevail at the Japanese Nats. The Russians have IS and ES as definite and one place is open, probably for Nelidina.

    Enjoy Nats but don't take them as definitive competitions, imo.

    Joe
    Last edited by Joesitz; 08-29-2003 at 07:47 PM.

  14. #29
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    2,356
    Originally posted by BravesSkateFan

    I always wondered if it would be any solution to make the picks for the Worlds team independent of your placement at Nats. Then perhaps it would keep the judges from holding up a skater in order to put them on the world team. The picks for the World team could be based on a number of factors including, placement at Nats, how you have performed during the current season, and past placements at Words. I'm not sure if its a good idea or not, but this way the people who skate best at Nats will be placed fairly, and also the country won't be forced to send skaters to Worlds who may have just won becasue everyone else screwed up or something.
    Actually as I understand by the rule only the Nat Champ is garanteed for a World's team slot. The other two can be choose by the USFSA whoever they like. I think the problems on in those judges who subconciously under the influence of whatever USFSA is promoted at the moment.

  15. #30
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Detroit, Michigan
    Posts
    27,124
    Originally posted by mzheng
    Actually as I understand by the rule only the Nat Champ is garanteed for a World's team slot. The other two can be choose by the USFSA whoever they like.
    This is the rule, but in practice the USFSA always, except under very unusual circumstances, as in 1994, sends the skaters who finished 1, 2, 3 at Nationals. They do this expressly to avoid the appearance of impropriety, favoritism and smoke-filled-backroom deals.

    Other skating federations, especially in Europe, I believe do take into account the entire season, sometimes even having a "skate-off" between the leading contenders.

    Mathman

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 1 2 3 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •