Sashas Edges
- Thread starter skatepixie
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And who are these other skaters, just curious?
This is #181, so 250 is definitely possible.
BTW, I thought ever since ISU created the ranking system about 3 years ago, Irina was ranked #1 for most of the time. Michelle only held that spot briefly for 3 - 4 weeks post world 03, then she dropped to 4th.
I am not familiar with skating rankings to comment much, rankings in other sports e.g. tennis, changes frequently, one day Sampras is #1, the next Andre. Does Pete or Andre even keep up with the ranking over time? At the end of the day does Pete remember the total number of grand slam titles, or does he remember the total # of weeks in the past decade of being #1 ranked?
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- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
Mathman - It's incredible the constant put downs of Mk over the years. First it was Tara, then for lack of someone else it became Irina. Who da thunk Sarah would be THE one Grand Winner when SC was coming on strong. SC is still coming on strong with the fans, and her fans have to realize that she's at the top of her game and she is ez prey to the nonSCs fans. Live with it, the Kwaniacs had to.
Joe
Joe
Rgirl said:
Actually, ISU just changed the way they weight the ISU competetion in their ranking system about month after the 2003 worlds. Right after the 2003 worlds they updated their web site with Michelle ranked as No. 1 -- I believe they still use the old calculation -- in their web site for about month or so. Then they updated their web sit with the current ranking where Michelle ranked as 4th or 5th? by using the new calculation weight.
The current ranking calculation is much simplar than the one they used before. First, now they only count 2 season results, before was more than 3 season? Second, now they just assign the fixed points to each ISU competetion result, before the points a skater win in one competetion also related to the other skaters's ranking in the competetion, quite complicated. For example, you get more points when you win a competetion if the higher ranked skaters you competed against in that competetion.
And someone mentioned that Sasha falled on her camel spin at worlds LP. I think it was not co-incident. Her camel spin in Nats' SP also running wild after she witched to the IE she had to cut short of her spin to save the element. Her edge control indeed was not as secure as the other top elite ladies like Fummie, Michelle, Sarah and Irina, (these are the ones I can think about now). I also heard DB said -- after Peggy criticising Fummie's extension on her switch edge camel spin -- 'She also didn't fall'.
Lost control once you may say her toe pick got caught by accident, but lost control twice on the same element I'd suspect she simply lack of control edge or edge switching.
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- Joined
- Jul 26, 2003
I love the idea of Rglasses! Btw, I've tried Mathman customized pair of Michelle Rglasses... but I must have tried the wrong pair, because she wasn't naked!Rgirl said:
Well, actually I'm kinda cautious when it comes to positive exaggeration, as well. I mean, I don't have anything gushing about our favorite skaters, it's fun and overall a very positive thing. But in a thread like this I would like to see people concentrate on facts, and discuss them, which would be a nice learning experience for all of us, I think (OK, so I'm an idealist). The thread would be much shorter and more informative. I love Sasha's skating (and I'm not exaggerating), but I've grown tired of Peggy and Dick's (as well as some of her fans') gushing. Even I know that they sometimes say things which are not true.
I'm guilty of not seeing some things myself (sometimes I'm too much in awe, sometimes just tired and sleepy when I watch someone skate -- which was the case with one of Sasha's performances last season, after which I wrote a little too enthusiastic review), that's why I like to read what other people have to say. But if they exaggerate too, it can take us a long time to find the facts.
As for falling on simple(-er) moves, I've seen Yags fall on some, and in competitions, no less (and I think he fell on them more times than Sasha has, before and until he was her age). Ice is slippery, and you can't always prevent things like that. So I wouldn't take it into account when evaluating how good a skater someone is. When I want to do that I watch for the landings/moves they've managed to save, when it looked as an impossible thing to do.
Btw, I've seen you say hi to me in one of Michelle threads. I wanted to say hi back, but I don't think I've watched Michelle enough to be able to participate in most discussions about her skating, so I'm saying HI here. http://members.lycos.co.uk/windspirit6/sm/wave.gif It's really good to see you back, Rgirl! I love your long posts, keep 'em coming.
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Yes I'm digging the never ending thread out of the grave...
I do have a question, not about Sasha but edges in general.
Where is the best place to check good edge quality: in moves like spread eagles, spirals etc. Or in basic skating and jumping landings/takeoffs?
I do have a question, not about Sasha but edges in general.
Where is the best place to check good edge quality: in moves like spread eagles, spirals etc. Or in basic skating and jumping landings/takeoffs?
- Joined
- Aug 30, 2003
edge quaility
Lulu,
I try to look for edge quility in back crossovers, jump landings footwork, and spirals.
I look for how "deep in the knees" a skater is,
I look for who deep the edges are,
I look for look to see if they do a equal amound of inside and outsides egdes or do they prefer to skate on one or the other most of the time
I look for jumps that are underrotated or cheated
I look for the speed/edge depth ratio....in other words I look to see if the skater is skating on deep AND fast eges (very hard) or skating on deep but slow edges edges or shallow and fast edges or shallow eges and slow(very easy)
Dorthy Hamil and Yuka Sato has awesome edges!!
Michelle Kwan has the best edges of the eligible ladies now!
And Surya Bonaly is know for her bad edging. But I love her style anyway
Lulu,
I try to look for edge quility in back crossovers, jump landings footwork, and spirals.
I look for how "deep in the knees" a skater is,
I look for who deep the edges are,
I look for look to see if they do a equal amound of inside and outsides egdes or do they prefer to skate on one or the other most of the time
I look for jumps that are underrotated or cheated
I look for the speed/edge depth ratio....in other words I look to see if the skater is skating on deep AND fast eges (very hard) or skating on deep but slow edges edges or shallow and fast edges or shallow eges and slow(very easy)
Dorthy Hamil and Yuka Sato has awesome edges!!
Michelle Kwan has the best edges of the eligible ladies now!
And Surya Bonaly is know for her bad edging. But I love her style anyway
Re: edge quaility
Yes. Dorthy Hamil. I have a tape where have all these old time and new time OGM skated some exhibition number. Dorthy's edge stands out obviousely. Kat W., Okasona's no where near Dorthy's. Not even as good as some today's eligibles.
Kwanisqueen81 said:
Yes. Dorthy Hamil. I have a tape where have all these old time and new time OGM skated some exhibition number. Dorthy's edge stands out obviousely. Kat W., Okasona's no where near Dorthy's. Not even as good as some today's eligibles.
Who has the best landing exit edges in jumps:
Kristi and Michelle overall, they do not land on an inside edge and rock to the outside
, they are able to exit many jumps and extend that into a back spiral
Kristi can exit her triple lutz, triple flip, triple toe and double axel into BO spiral
Michelle can exit her triple flip, triple sal, triple toe and double axels into BO spiral
The most impressive exit edge is Sarah's double axel, it is a DEEP BO edge
In her Sanctus program, Fumie approached her triple toe in a spiral, then exit the toe into a BO -> FI spiral
Among the Japanese skaters Yuka has the softest knees, followed by Fumie. Fumie's edges are not as quiet, but she has soft knees and stroke efficiency.
I think Kostner, and Ota (maybe even Miki Ando) have better edges than 2 of the top 4 senior ladies world 2003 medalists.
Kristi and Michelle overall, they do not land on an inside edge and rock to the outside
, they are able to exit many jumps and extend that into a back spiralKristi can exit her triple lutz, triple flip, triple toe and double axel into BO spiral
Michelle can exit her triple flip, triple sal, triple toe and double axels into BO spiral
The most impressive exit edge is Sarah's double axel, it is a DEEP BO edge
In her Sanctus program, Fumie approached her triple toe in a spiral, then exit the toe into a BO -> FI spiral
Among the Japanese skaters Yuka has the softest knees, followed by Fumie. Fumie's edges are not as quiet, but she has soft knees and stroke efficiency.
I think Kostner, and Ota (maybe even Miki Ando) have better edges than 2 of the top 4 senior ladies world 2003 medalists.
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- Joined
- Jul 26, 2003
rtureck said:
Oh, yes!
I think Totmianina has the best edges when landing throws. She usually gets about 1/3 of the length of the rink in the glide out.
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
Hockeyfan. I would change your wording to'among' the best. Think Zhen!!
Joe
Joe
- Joined
- Jul 26, 2003
I can't. I think that Totmianina's landings are consistently superior, with a legato stretch into arabesque, beautiful "boot point," and near-perfect posture and control out of the spiral position. (I've never seen her drop her leg out of anything.) I don't think Zhen has the same "streeeeetch" out of the landing, or position or posture. She tends to throw her leg up and drop it down on the way to the next movement. Although she improved at Worlds this year.
What has made the 'new' ISU rankings so different from the previous system is the point value attached to the Grand Prix events.
Any skater who does not participate in the Grand Prix, no matter how successful at ISU championships, will quickly slide downward on the list.
The fact is anyone who makes the Grand Prix final will wind up in the top exchelons, even if they never win a world medal. The reason? A World Championship gets 1200 points, with 50 points deducted for each placement below gold.
A Grand Prix event gold medal gets 400 points, with a 25-point deduction for each placement below gold. A Grand Prix Final gold medal gets 800 points, with a 50-point deduction for each placement below gold.
So--if a skater wins one gold medal and finishes 6th at the GPF, the point total is 400 + 550 GPF = 950. This is equivalent to a 6th place finish at Worlds! Of course, such a skater will likely finish in the top 10 at Worlds. A 10th place finish at Worlds would give an additional 750 points. So 750 + 950 = 1700 points, which would easily top a World Champion who did not participate in the Grand Prix.
Indeed, a skater who had two fourth place Grand Prix finishes, who did not even make the GPF and a 10th place finish at Worlds would accumulate 1350 points, also beating out the World Champion.
You can expect to see Michelle Kwan drop precipitously in the ISU standings at the end of this season. I am sure she will be absolutely devastated!:sheesh:
Any skater who does not participate in the Grand Prix, no matter how successful at ISU championships, will quickly slide downward on the list.
The fact is anyone who makes the Grand Prix final will wind up in the top exchelons, even if they never win a world medal. The reason? A World Championship gets 1200 points, with 50 points deducted for each placement below gold.
A Grand Prix event gold medal gets 400 points, with a 25-point deduction for each placement below gold. A Grand Prix Final gold medal gets 800 points, with a 50-point deduction for each placement below gold.
So--if a skater wins one gold medal and finishes 6th at the GPF, the point total is 400 + 550 GPF = 950. This is equivalent to a 6th place finish at Worlds! Of course, such a skater will likely finish in the top 10 at Worlds. A 10th place finish at Worlds would give an additional 750 points. So 750 + 950 = 1700 points, which would easily top a World Champion who did not participate in the Grand Prix.
Indeed, a skater who had two fourth place Grand Prix finishes, who did not even make the GPF and a 10th place finish at Worlds would accumulate 1350 points, also beating out the World Champion.
You can expect to see Michelle Kwan drop precipitously in the ISU standings at the end of this season. I am sure she will be absolutely devastated!:sheesh:
- Joined
- Jul 26, 2003
shine said:
For me, too, Pang is closer to Totmianina than Shen. What lovely line.
Sneaking in another subject -- And Zhang has some of the most beautiful, balletic, arm movements I've seen in pairs.
Mzheng,
I agree that Sasha's edges are not secure. I think I said in another post that I thought her edges were better during her last year with Nicks than they were this past season with Tarasova. IMO, she gets into some beautifully deep edges, but her overall security in all the things KwanisQueen mentioned is not strong. I think it probably has to do with lack of emphasis from Tarasova in terms of training and also with Sasha giving up the off-ice training regimen she had while with Nicks. Perhaps Tarasova thought her basics were stronger than they actually were or perhaps TT chose to work on other things. Who knows? All I know is that I saw Sasha lose a lot of muscle mass from '02 to '03, lose a lot of the depth she had in her knees, and in general just was not "into the ice" the way she was in '02, especially in her '02 SP. Although I think Sasha skated much better overall -- I mean, her '01 GP series was a splat fest -- IMO she lost some of her core strength, which is key. Tarasova says Sasha will have an off-ice trainer this year and I hope that helps, but unless the coach hammers away at those essentials, I don't know. I think Cohen is doing what Tarasova says, perhaps almost to a fault. For me it's just a shame because I think Sasha moves so beautifully that for her not to have that strong technical center, which I think clearly she is capable of, is just unnecessary. But it's for Sasha and Tarasova to figure out. I do think Cohen had outgrown Nicks as a coach and needed to be in the kind of environment Tarsova provides. I just don't know if Tarasova will ultimately prove to be the right coach for Cohen. Of course we'll have to see what happens this season.
Windspirit,
Hey back. No prob, I knew we'd "chat" sooner or later. Actually, as you so often do, you make excellent points about positive exaggeration. I guess I was thinking about end-of-the-season "Wasn't s/he/they incredible!" gushing. But you're right. When people start to claim that so-and-so is the "greatest ever" at something I think it takes the discussion away from facts and into adulation. Just as it was clarified that Cohen did not fall at Campbell's but was "woozy" on her final spins, I think it's good to stick to specifics and facts in discussions like this. So I take back what I said about positive exaggeration as being okay with the exception of a thread that is clearly meant to be a gush thread.
Joe,
It's true that Michelle has gotten a lot of criticism from the Kwan haters, but compared to the amount of adulation and sheer numbers of "to die for" Michelle fans, I don't think it's accurate to compare Michelle to the other skaters you mentioned. Tara, Irina, and Sasha have been and continue to be criticized as much as Michelle ever was, and in some cases perhaps more so, but they have never received anywhere near the amount of praise that sometimes verges on worship that Michelle has gotten and still gets. Not that Michelle doesn't deserve it. I just think you're comparing apples and oranges.
Rgirl
I agree that Sasha's edges are not secure. I think I said in another post that I thought her edges were better during her last year with Nicks than they were this past season with Tarasova. IMO, she gets into some beautifully deep edges, but her overall security in all the things KwanisQueen mentioned is not strong. I think it probably has to do with lack of emphasis from Tarasova in terms of training and also with Sasha giving up the off-ice training regimen she had while with Nicks. Perhaps Tarasova thought her basics were stronger than they actually were or perhaps TT chose to work on other things. Who knows? All I know is that I saw Sasha lose a lot of muscle mass from '02 to '03, lose a lot of the depth she had in her knees, and in general just was not "into the ice" the way she was in '02, especially in her '02 SP. Although I think Sasha skated much better overall -- I mean, her '01 GP series was a splat fest -- IMO she lost some of her core strength, which is key. Tarasova says Sasha will have an off-ice trainer this year and I hope that helps, but unless the coach hammers away at those essentials, I don't know. I think Cohen is doing what Tarasova says, perhaps almost to a fault. For me it's just a shame because I think Sasha moves so beautifully that for her not to have that strong technical center, which I think clearly she is capable of, is just unnecessary. But it's for Sasha and Tarasova to figure out. I do think Cohen had outgrown Nicks as a coach and needed to be in the kind of environment Tarsova provides. I just don't know if Tarasova will ultimately prove to be the right coach for Cohen. Of course we'll have to see what happens this season.
Windspirit,
Hey back. No prob, I knew we'd "chat" sooner or later. Actually, as you so often do, you make excellent points about positive exaggeration. I guess I was thinking about end-of-the-season "Wasn't s/he/they incredible!" gushing. But you're right. When people start to claim that so-and-so is the "greatest ever" at something I think it takes the discussion away from facts and into adulation. Just as it was clarified that Cohen did not fall at Campbell's but was "woozy" on her final spins, I think it's good to stick to specifics and facts in discussions like this. So I take back what I said about positive exaggeration as being okay with the exception of a thread that is clearly meant to be a gush thread.
Joe,
It's true that Michelle has gotten a lot of criticism from the Kwan haters, but compared to the amount of adulation and sheer numbers of "to die for" Michelle fans, I don't think it's accurate to compare Michelle to the other skaters you mentioned. Tara, Irina, and Sasha have been and continue to be criticized as much as Michelle ever was, and in some cases perhaps more so, but they have never received anywhere near the amount of praise that sometimes verges on worship that Michelle has gotten and still gets. Not that Michelle doesn't deserve it. I just think you're comparing apples and oranges.
Rgirl
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