Sashas Edges

[StillBlueLake]

It's a lovely spiral photo, however, it is on a relatively shallow outside edge. Compare it to this photo:

http://www.heatherw.com/mk/pics/aditl/mk00w115807.jpg

Difference in edge quality is obvious.

[Fossi]

Originally posted by registered
Not true, I've heard TV commentators to complement on Sasha's deep, flowing edges many times.

You must watch Eurosport then? You're so lucky. I wish I could watch skating on Eurosport.

[rtureck]

Originally posted by berthes ghost
Interesting.

What next, some still photos of Sarah getting into a beautiful position for about 3.2 seconds to disprove all those people who say she's gawky? How about some still photos of MK falling to disprove all those who say she's consistant? How can she be consistant when I have 4 shots of her falling? Or how about 4 photos of Alexei on the bronze or silver podium to disprove all of those people who say he's won gold a number of times?

Berthes Ghost, ITA.

I think the best way to judge edges and edge security is to be there, present in person to watch them skate.

[rtureck]

from mzheng

It includes adjust the edges according to the speed, body lean, and the curv on ice etc. There is a physics formular: CenterForce=m*v*v/r=m*G*cos@. and the VerticalSupport=m*G*sin@, which is applied to the blads by the ice surface. Where @ is the angle between blads and the ice surface.

By using above theory I think the speed in Sasha's COE spiral is the reason why she can achieve good outside edge but weak in inside edge. In general, when doing OE, the center gravity of the body -- which is more close to the curve line skater skated at -- allow skater to get enough center force at relative low speed (v) to maintain balance (not tilt over). when doing IE, the center gravity of the body -- which is far away to the curve line skater skated at -- require higher speed to get enough center force in order to maitain balance.

mzheng, I actually find this thread rather business as usual, until I see your description. Since I am so Math and Physics challenged, I can't quite understand, but it is a good chance to learn something new.

So by Sasha's speed in COE, you mean the v in the equation?

the curve line is r?

I guess it makes sense because center force is proportional to v/r, so if r is smaller then v can be smaller.

Now about @ , you said is the angle formed by the blade and the ice, so the smaller the @, the deeper the edge?

So for a skater 1 who has deep edges, i.e. @1 is a small angle, and skater 2 who has shallow edge, i.e. @2 is a large angle?

The value of cos of a smaller angle is greater than the value of cos of a larger angle right?

[Norlite]

Originally posted by boggartlaura
.............. lack of edge contol that I worry about. And you can't show that in pictures.

Well, once in a while you can.

Jeffrey Buttle doing his inside spread eagle while debuting his new long program at Minto Summer Skate, beginning of August. :

http://www.pbase.com/image/20702041

[mzheng]

Originally posted by Norlite
Well, once in a while you can.

Jeffrey Buttle doing his inside spread eagle while debuting his new long program at Minto Summer Skate, beginning of August. :

http://www.pbase.com/image/20702041

Wow, I'm very impressed. Sure he is at great speed to maintain that edge.

[registered]

Originally posted by StillBlueLake
It's a lovely spiral photo, however, it is on a relatively shallow outside edge. Compare it to this photo:

http://www.heatherw.com/mk/pics/aditl/mk00w115807.jpg

Difference in edge quality is obvious.

That's a nice spiral, but a free leg's extention could be much better, than that. Compare to this one:

http://kgphotos.com/cgi-bin/RLink/RL...=&SEARCHTERM3=

"She is an overall exquisite skater. She is just marvelous. Her positions, her style, her back, the stretch of the legs, the spins, the quality of the whole thing, its just magnificent. If only she could keep those little mistakes out of the program, she will be an almost unbeatable skater. Simply glorious, and magnificent positions, and elegance, and line." Dick Button @ Crest Whitestrips

"Watch the inside edge she turns into on this flying camel, that is so difficult to do, nothing she does is simple." (Tracy Wilson @Sears)

"Her spirals are unquestionably the best." -Peggy Flemming, 2002 Skate Canada SP

[mzheng]

Originally posted by rtureck

So by Sasha's speed in COE, you mean the v in the equation?

Yes.

Originally posted by rtureck

the curve line is r?

No, I mean the arch line.

Originally posted by rtureck

I guess it makes sense because center force is proportional to v/r, so if r is smaller then v can be smaller.

Now about @ , you said is the angle formed by the blade and the ice, so the smaller the @, the deeper the edge?

So for a skater 1 who has deep edges, i.e. @1 is a small angle, and skater 2 who has shallow edge, i.e. @2 is a large angle?

The value of cos of a smaller angle is greater than the value of cos of a larger angle right?

Yes.

Notice the 2 edges -- which are sharpened once a while -- on both side of the blads? Where is the vertical supporting force come from, so I think the area of the edge also affected the balance.

[Norlite]

That is so sweet how you jump right in to defend Sasha!

Perhaps from now on you should be known as :

"Sir Registered--Most Loyal Fan."

[StillBlueLake]

Originally posted by registered
That's a nice spiral, but a free leg's extention could be much better, than that. Compare to this one:

http://kgphotos.com/cgi-bin/RLink/RL...=&SEARCHTERM3=

"She is an overall exquisite skater. She is just marvelous. Her positions, her style, her back, the stretch of the legs, the spins, the quality of the whole thing, its just magnificent. If only she could keep those little mistakes out of the program, she will be an almost unbeatable skater. Simply glorious, and magnificent positions, and elegance, and line." Dick Button @ Crest Whitestrips

"Watch the inside edge she turns into on this flying camel, that is so difficult to do, nothing she does is simple." (Tracy Wilson @Sears)

"Her spirals are unquestionably the best." -Peggy Flemming, 2002 Skate Canada SP

Sasha has the extension, Michelle has the edges. Just as Michelle could improve her extension, Sasha could improve her edges. They are two skaters who excel at different things.

[Yazmeen]

Actually, if you want to see the kick-butt spiral position of all time, look up pics of Nicole Bobek.

registered: I suppose you do know that extension such as Sasha's is not technically a requirement for a spiral. The requirement is to be on an edge with the free leg straight and at hip height or better. Oh, Norlite, don't you mean "Knight Defender of the beautiful Princess Sasha???"

I can tell everyone from my minimal experience that speed is necessary for a COE spiral. I have a "baby" Kwan spiral at the moment (actually, embryonic might be a better term!!!) and the more speed I have going into it, the better I edge, the better the transition, and the longer the second edge (outside) holds. From a physics point of view, it is an interesting move, whether you do the calcs or not!!!

[mzheng]

Originally posted by registered


"She is an overall exquisite skater. She is just marvelous. Her positions, her style, her back, the stretch of the legs, the spins, the quality of the whole thing, its just magnificent. If only she could keep those little mistakes out of the program, she will be an almost unbeatable skater. Simply glorious, and magnificent positions, and elegance, and line." Dick Button @ Crest Whitestrips

"Watch the inside edge she turns into on this flying camel, that is so difficult to do, nothing she does is simple." (Tracy Wilson @Sears)

"Her spirals are unquestionably the best." -Peggy Flemming, 2002 Skate Canada SP

Then why she didn't win a medal at the world. I don't know who to trust, the judges or these comentators? Even when she skated a relative clean LP with 7 triples at qualify round at 2003 worlds, the judges still placed her behind MK and ES. With MK's 6 triple LP still come ahead of both Sasha and Elena. I think judges must evaluated the edge quality, speed, etc in Figure Skating than the leg position or amplitude.

They are all NA commentators. It is obviousely they are tring to build/hype up the next generation of Great US famel skater. You should listen to the commentators of EuroSport or commentators from Asia. They sure did not critisiz her as some of non-sasha fan dose, but nor they give her such high compliment. But they sure did give Kwan highly compliment during 2003 SP and LP. Kwan had been called 'Queen on the Ice' by both EuroSport (BBC) and CCTV comentators. But I never heard NA commentators called her that.

And change to inside edge camel spin first was brought back by Sarah in recent years. Just last season I saw it was performed by at least 3 top ladies, Sasha included. Sarah and Fummie sure did not fall on that like Sasha did. That means Sarah and Fummie, in general, have better edge control than Sasha.

That said, I didn't say Sasha's edge is bad. As compared to top ladies in the world, she is lacking edge control, thus she is lacking the basics. I think it make sense, though, in past a few years she was busy on 'inventing' her own moves, i.e, sasha skid -- or should I say brought back some old moves performed by previous generations skater -- or copy the movement from the current crops, ie. Sarah's change inside edge camel spin, Michelle's COE spiral. So she spend less time on trainning at the basics. Now there is hope that she gets more improved with TT this coming season and win a medal at world.

[registered]

Originally posted by StillBlueLake
Sasha has the extension, Michelle has the edges. Just as Michelle could improve her extension, Sasha could improve her edges. They are two skaters who excel at different things.

I can imagine, that at some point something has to give, as the free leg to higher, lean diminishes.

[PrincessLeppard]

If you heard announcers talking about Sasha's "deep, flowing edges" they
were probably talking about Sasha Abt. :D

Laura

[mzheng]

Originally posted by PrincessLeppard
If you heard announcers talking about Sasha's "deep, flowing edges" they
were probably talking about Sasha Abt. :D

Laura

ITA. He has the best edge quality in current top Russain male skaters, Alexie and Plush included.

What he lacks are:
a consistant quad
endurence by the last min.