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Thread: Sashas Edges

  1. #61
    With regard to the amplitude of Sasha's spiral (forgetting edges for the moment), I admit this is bad to ask, but I do wonder if some people don't like the 180-degree spiral position itself or if what they really don't like is the 180-degree spiral position on Sasha.
    I don't like the 180 degree position on anyone. At least not on anyone I've seen. I won't say that I'll never like it, because (for me at least) body type plays a part in the way a move looks on a certain skater. So maybe if a skater with a different body type than Sasha did it then I might like it better. Also there are other factors such as body position, extension, etc that can make one sprial look better than the other even if other factors are all the same.
    As far as Sasha goes, I think her sprial looks best in the first "stage" of it . If you notice when she goes inot her sprial position she does it in like 2 stages, she lifts her leg almost all the way up, then pulls it up to the full split. I think it looks much better before she pulls it all the way up. I wish she'd do her sprial like that....I think it's much prettier

  2. #62
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    Originally posted by Rgirl
    As for the 180-degree split on her spiral, I love it. Of course it's not just the split, it's the arch of the back, the turnout of the free leg from the hip, the pointed toe, the extension (and I mean extension as in S-T-R-E-T-C-H), and the whole quality of the move. I loved Nicole Bobek's 180-spiral and I love Sasha's. I also love the spirals of Michelle, Yuka, Irina (when she doesn't rush them), and a number of other skaters, though of course for different reasons. In his prime, Paul Wylie had one of the most beautiful spirals I've ever seen.

    As for me, I'll take Sasha's free leg on her spiral straight up, thank you, though I would like more speed and deeper edging. As Mzheng pointed out, the higher the free leg, the more difficult it is to hold a deep edge because of the change in the center of gravity, especially a FIE. I couldn't find them, but there are a couple of photos of Irina and Michelle doing their FIE spiral with the edge at a good 45-degree angle or less to the ice. But you also see, especially on Irina, the free leg out to the side (abducted). Not so much on Michelle. To get a really deep FIE on a spiral and keep the free leg directly behind the hip, especially at greater amplitudes, is incredibly difficult to do without falling over.
    Rgirl, Ecumenical Spiral Lover
    Rgirl
    Rgirl, I agree, Sasha's free leg is perfectly aligned with over all body position, while with other skaters (Michelle included), free leg goes to the side.

    While watching skaters perform live at this season's COI, I made some observations: Nicole gets good extension, but alignment is so-so, also, as she goes forward, free leg moves lower.

    Michelle makes a dramatic COE, but stops almost right there, and covers only about 2/3 of the rink.

    Sasha covers an entire rink, makes smooth transitions, while holding a perfect body position. Holding so still, while moving so fast shows a great strength and edges control. That's why commentators crown her spiral as the best in the world.

  3. #63
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    mzheng

    I am so glad you return to this thread, I am still trying to muddle through the physics

    The CONTROL of the edge, that's what she is lacking. It includes adjust the edges according to the speed, body lean, and the curv on ice etc. There is a physics formular: CenterForce=m*v*v/r=m*G*cos@. and the VerticalSupport=m*G*sin@, which is applied to the blads by the ice surface. Where @ is the angle between blads and the ice surface.
    Be patient with me, I am physics challenged, so let state the formulae again

    CenterForce = m*v*v/r = m*G*cos@

    Intuiitvely, I think these equations are used to compare
    the same skater's inside and outside edges, e.g. depth of Irina's inside and outside edges, and not the depth of Fumie's edges v the depth of Sarah's edges, because m (I assume that is the mass) is listed in both equations, therefore it cancels out.

    So v*v/r = G*cos@

    or r ( the arch line, and I am still not sure what an arch line is) is inversely proportional to the cos of @

    The smaller the @, the deeper the edge and the larger is the cos of @. and the smaller the r. What is the arch line?

    Further, I believe your equations can not be used to compare one skater's amplitude v another skater's depth of edges, i.e. @. So we can not use your equations to compare Sarah's amplitude v Fumie's edges

    So if I am not mistaken, by your equations, you are telling us that it is more difficult to keep a deep inside edge than a deep outside for the same skater So a skater like our reigning Olympic Champion Sarah is a very special, because both her inside and outside edges are DEEP

    Now onto the third equation:

    VerticalSupport=m*G*sin@

    For a skater who has deep edges (either outside or inside) i.e. small @ the vertical support is smaller too, because sin of a small angle is a small number. Does that mean that a skater needs to have extra skill to maintain a deep edge (small @) since the vertical support is smaller for a smaller angle.

    I am seriously interested in this physics stuff, so I appreciate a response, and please do not laugh at me, I threw away my high school physics books long time ago.
    Last edited by rtureck; 08-29-2003 at 06:20 PM.

  4. #64
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    I've been reading this since it started and I don't see what the big deal is. Everyone has different strengths. No, Sasha's edges are not the best, but her flexibility is (IMO). I guess you sacrifice one for the other. Let's all just agree to disagree! And now I'm going to go hide from the physics because I hate math.

  5. #65
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    Still trying to muddle through

    v*v/r = G*cos@

    the smaller the @, the larger is the value of cos@, i.e. the smaller the value of r. Does that mean when a skater with deep edges strokes through the ice, it looks like the path she takes is a curve, the deeper the edge, the more curvy or round is the path. For a skater who has shallow edges or skates close to flat , the path on the ice also looks flat, almost like a straight line.

    Now how do we compare a the total distance covered by a skater with deep edges, i.e. who traces a curvy, round path on the ice to the total distance covered by a skater who has flat edges, and traces a flat almost straight line looking path? Of course it is not a straight line, just a large r that gives the appearance of a straight line

    Back to the example of our reigning Olympic champion Sarah, who has a DEEP inside edge spiral. When she covers seemingly just half the distance of an ice rink with her deep edges, the total distance actually travelled may be more than another skater, e.g. Bonaly who skates on flat edges, but seemingly covers the whole rink.

    mzheng, I could be totally wrong, so I appreciate a response. BTW, professor Mathman if you are reading, don't laugh. I bet you won't accept me as a student,but I am trying my very best.

    PS, my next muddling effort, I want to look at v - velocity, i.e. the speed of the skaters. v*v/ r = G cos @ hmmm....
    Last edited by rtureck; 08-29-2003 at 06:22 PM.

  6. #66
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    nothing really lavender, just trying to be positive in a somewhat negative thread.

  7. #67
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    rGirl - Welcome back. I knew I'd find you on a Sasha thread.

    Sasha's over emphasizing her flexibility is done as part of her overall performance. It is considered by many, including me, as striking; stunning; exiciting. I adore it. But......

    I'm a lyricist at heart, and after all that excitement, I get all choked up with a more supple, soft approach to flexibility which does not require the acrobatic style. Just my opinion.

    Joe

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    To rtureck ...

    rtureck,

    Physics was my under's majore, it was more than 20 years ago and I studied in a different languge. Now I'm in a different country with a different profetion, which has nothing to do wiht any of this formular but a lot to do with computer. So sometimes I may not express it well. By the arch I mean a section of spiral (or circle).

    If you are interested, a while ago there is a disscussion thread in MKF, which disscus the edge and spiral from the scientific view and with a lot nice draw analysis. The link to the thread:

    http://pub1.ezboard.com/fmichellekwa...tart=1&stop=20

    The equation I gave above can only be used to show a general idea -- intutively -- where the speed, lean, and curve etc affect the control. The more accurate analysis should include the Forces applied to the blad by the ice.

  9. #69
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    Originally posted by Joesitz
    rGirl - Welcome back. I knew I'd find you on a Sasha thread.

    Sasha's over emphasizing her flexibility is done as part of her overall performance. It is considered by many, including me, as striking; stunning; exiciting. I adore it. But......

    I'm a lyricist at heart, and after all that excitement, I get all choked up with a more supple, soft approach to flexibility which does not require the acrobatic style. Just my opinion.

    Joe
    Well put, Joe!

  10. #70
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    RTureck, Take a small section of arc, approximate that section by the circular arc with the best possible fit, take the radius of that circle, then pass to the limit as the arc gets smaller and smaller. That's r. The curvature of the arc is 1/r (with inverse distance units).

    As MZheng says, these formulas are intended to quantify the following basic and commonsensical ideas:

    (a) The faster you go and the tighter the curve, the more you have to lean.

    (b) The farther you lean, the more likely you are to fall down.

    "Control of edges," then, means making all those tiny instinctive muscle adjustments necessary to keep all of these forces in balance. I don't know how you "train" this. Obviously, practice makes perfect, like a baby learning to walk. Beyond that, I think it just comes down to natural talent. Your coach can't tell you, no, no, you should be leaning an extra 0.2861 degrees when your velocity is 3.3964 meters per second on an arc of curvature .1749 per meter. So I wonder how much improvement in this skill is really possible for a skater in the later stages of her developmental career.

    Anyway, what MZheng calls "failing to control your edges" and what Dustin calls "a momentary loss of balance" -- I think they are saying the same thing.

    FanforLady2001 -- I totally agree with everything you said:

    (1) Sasha's edges are fine;

    (2) Sasha has pretty costumes;

    (3) I hope she ends up on the podium; and

    (4) It's better to say something positve than something negative.

    Mathman

  11. #71
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    Originally posted by Joesitz
    rGirl - Welcome back. I knew I'd find you on a Sasha thread.

    Sasha's over emphasizing her flexibility is done as part of her overall performance. It is considered by many, including me, as striking; stunning; exiciting. I adore it. But......

    I'm a lyricist at heart, and after all that excitement, I get all choked up with a more supple, soft approach to flexibility which does not require the acrobatic style. Just my opinion.

    Joe
    ITA that's what I love so much about Nicole, NNN, and AP. All three incorporate their flexibility without it being "the main attraction" they work it into their programs into a more subtle way.

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    Thanks Mathman. You explain it well than I do.

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    (a) The faster you go and the tighter the curve, the more you have to lean.
    Since I have nothing better to do.

    v*v/r = G cos*@

    Why can't I look at the other side of the coin, so to speak. The smaller the @, the larger is the value of G cos*@. Since v is proportional to cos * @, that means, the more the lean, (smaller @) the more speed v the skater has to generate to maintain that small angle. Because there are skaters who skate fast, but do not have deep edges. Obviously skaters like Irina and Yuka have both deep edges and speed

    mzheng said, that if we compare the inside and outside edge of the same skater, it is easier to maintain a deep edge (smaller @) for an outside edge. That is something new to me, because if we look at our reigning Olympic champion Sarah, or the world champion Irina, their inside edges are just as deep as their outside edges. I guess that is why they are Olympic and world champions.

    The farther you lean, the more likely you are to fall down.
    So going back to the verical support: I assume the more support the less chance the skater will fall.

    VerticalSupport=m*G*sin@

    So for a skater with deep edges, small @, there is less vertical support , because sin @ will be smaller. That means the skater must acquire more skill to avoid falling, if she is maintaining a deep edge.

    Thanks for explaining it in non math / physics language but I prefer to muddle through all the terms in the equations.

    Last edited by rtureck; 08-30-2003 at 12:30 AM.

  14. #74
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    The Best And Worst Spiral

    It's Goofus & Gallant Time:

    For a demonstration of how to perform a perfect spiral, click on this little icon:



    For a demonstration of how to perform a not-so-perfect spiral, click on this little icon:

    :(

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    Exclamation

    Is that YOU?

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