- Joined
- Jul 26, 2003
I dont' know, to me Michelle's lean looks far deeper.
Sashas Edges
- Thread starter skatepixie
- Start date
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
Well, the photos are a little fuzzy, especially Sasha's, but I just measured the angles with a protractor as best I could. In fact, I measured twice.
First I measured the two angles with my Michelle protractor. Sasha's edge angle is 60 degrees, Michelle's is 55. Yay, Michelle!
Then I measured the angles with my Sasha protractor: Sasha 50 degrees, Michelle 57. Go Sasha!
Mathman
First I measured the two angles with my Michelle protractor. Sasha's edge angle is 60 degrees, Michelle's is 55. Yay, Michelle!
Then I measured the angles with my Sasha protractor: Sasha 50 degrees, Michelle 57. Go Sasha!
Mathman
CartDi,
Great picture of Sasha and her outside edge. That short program from 2002 is one of my favorites. She had such flow in that program, along with her great elements and extensions, and the coreography was so musical and cohesive, compared to some of her long programs, i.e. Rach. Something about the waltz rhythm that suited her so well.
EricAba.
Speaking of edging and speed, how does the Sasha from the 2001-2002 season compare with the Sasha from this past season? Can't tell speed from the videotapes, but it seems to me that Sasha's edging was much more secure in the Olympic season than last. She also seemed a bit "beefier" back then.
Great picture of Sasha and her outside edge. That short program from 2002 is one of my favorites. She had such flow in that program, along with her great elements and extensions, and the coreography was so musical and cohesive, compared to some of her long programs, i.e. Rach. Something about the waltz rhythm that suited her so well.
EricAba.
Speaking of edging and speed, how does the Sasha from the 2001-2002 season compare with the Sasha from this past season? Can't tell speed from the videotapes, but it seems to me that Sasha's edging was much more secure in the Olympic season than last. She also seemed a bit "beefier" back then.
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- Joined
- Jul 26, 2003
If you look at the body alignment, though, Cohen's free foot is balanced over/aligned with her hip, while Kwan's is a bit to the outside. That suggests to me that Kwan is using the free foot to counter her balance over the outside edge, while Cohen is perfectly aligned over the outside edge.
Because of that, and Cohen's beautiful free leg positions going into toe jumps, it always surprises me when she flutzes. Often a flutzer picks wide, to the outside of the free hip, which pulls the skater back towards the center, to the flat or inside edge. Hughes' wide free leg on her spirals and her pick on the lutz makes perfect technical sense to me -- both are flawed in the same way. The true lutzers pick directly behind the hip, which provides a breathtaking counterbalance to the outside edge of the working leg. I can't figure out why Cohen's spiral alignment doesn't translate to her lutz.
Because of that, and Cohen's beautiful free leg positions going into toe jumps, it always surprises me when she flutzes. Often a flutzer picks wide, to the outside of the free hip, which pulls the skater back towards the center, to the flat or inside edge. Hughes' wide free leg on her spirals and her pick on the lutz makes perfect technical sense to me -- both are flawed in the same way. The true lutzers pick directly behind the hip, which provides a breathtaking counterbalance to the outside edge of the working leg. I can't figure out why Cohen's spiral alignment doesn't translate to her lutz.
- Joined
- Jul 26, 2003
I think it's kinda hard to compare the two pictures considering that Michelle is going backwards and going to do a hydroblade like move, while Sasha is going forward on her outside edged spiral.
I think comparing pictures in kinda useless because the only way to really compare edges on spirals is to watch a tape of the whole spiral in actual movement to see how long they stay on the particular edge and how much ice surface is covered on the edge. As for spiral sequences, you also have to consider the amount of crossovers between the spirals to compare speed, distance, and depth of edge.
I think comparing pictures in kinda useless because the only way to really compare edges on spirals is to watch a tape of the whole spiral in actual movement to see how long they stay on the particular edge and how much ice surface is covered on the edge. As for spiral sequences, you also have to consider the amount of crossovers between the spirals to compare speed, distance, and depth of edge.
"Using the leg for better alignment"; "harder" vs. "easier".
Okay, though I'm still a beginner, I've noticed some things about spirals on inside and outside edges, that are true about lots of things relating to edges in skating.
What seems "easy" at first often turns out to mean "safe", "comfortable", etc. So having your leg out wide in a spiral or arabesque, or even (at my level) coming out of a forward 3 turn, is a fairly natural tendency. It allows one to feel more stable, to "err", given a lack of control and balance, to falling towards the side on which the free leg is already waiting to catch you, etc.
One of the most exciting feelings in skating is when, usually after being pushed by your coach, you finally make yourself get "aligned" instead of going for the safety factor.
Assuming you don't fall over, it really is so much easier to hold that aligned position, especially on a sustained deep edge, than having your free leg outside your alignment over the blade.
Once you learn to do that, the only hard part is, as far as I can tell, staying flexible and strong enough physically to hold the aligned positions. Extension -- true extension, by which I don't mean just limb height, angle of limbs, etc. -- is important here, since it gives the skater a stability from head to fingers and toes that might otherwise go to pot and be used to make up for lack of edge control.
Also, you have to keep up with your skating and therefore your confidence in those truly aligned positions, so you don't fall back to the "safe", though actually harder, wide-legged positions.
Okay, though I'm still a beginner, I've noticed some things about spirals on inside and outside edges, that are true about lots of things relating to edges in skating.
What seems "easy" at first often turns out to mean "safe", "comfortable", etc. So having your leg out wide in a spiral or arabesque, or even (at my level) coming out of a forward 3 turn, is a fairly natural tendency. It allows one to feel more stable, to "err", given a lack of control and balance, to falling towards the side on which the free leg is already waiting to catch you, etc.
One of the most exciting feelings in skating is when, usually after being pushed by your coach, you finally make yourself get "aligned" instead of going for the safety factor.
Assuming you don't fall over, it really is so much easier to hold that aligned position, especially on a sustained deep edge, than having your free leg outside your alignment over the blade.
Once you learn to do that, the only hard part is, as far as I can tell, staying flexible and strong enough physically to hold the aligned positions. Extension -- true extension, by which I don't mean just limb height, angle of limbs, etc. -- is important here, since it gives the skater a stability from head to fingers and toes that might otherwise go to pot and be used to make up for lack of edge control.
Also, you have to keep up with your skating and therefore your confidence in those truly aligned positions, so you don't fall back to the "safe", though actually harder, wide-legged positions.
Everyone says Sasha would be unbeatable if she skated clean, or is she was "on." But, how can anyone really say that for certain? She has never skated two clean programs, as many other skaters have.
Maybe Sasha and her coach should start reading the message boards and work on her edges. I know that is what Sarah
and Robin did............and look where it got Sarah!! Olympic Champion.
Maybe Sasha and her coach should start reading the message boards and work on her edges. I know that is what Sarah
and Robin did............and look where it got Sarah!! Olympic Champion.
- Joined
- Aug 17, 2003
Not many other skaters consistently lay out 2 clean programs in the competition, Michelle is an exception here. Sasha, at all her inconsistency is more stable of a skater, than most others.Fossi said:Everyone says Sasha would be unbeatable if she skated clean, or is she was "on." But, how can anyone really say that for certain? She has never skated two clean programs, as many other skaters have.
Maybe Sasha and her coach should start reading the message boards and work on her edges. I know that is what Sarah
Are you seriously believe that reading skating boards got Sarah to become an Olympic champion? I certainly hope skaters don't read boards, so much rubbish being posted on the Internet, like Sasha's not having edges, for example. And no matter how many pictures of Sasha's superb edge quality would be posted, the mantra would go unchanged: "She's on flat!"
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
Oh for the days when Irina did better spirals than Michelle! Now that Sasha is coming into her own we are forgetting that other older skater. Too bad.
I've looked at those pictures and that's what I saw - pictures. Both skaters have excellent lean on the edges (in the pictures). What you don't see, is how long they hold that edge. A good spiral has a free leg higher than her body; a strong edge, and the ability to hold it for a time. Those photos do no show the hold of the spiral (or the speed, for that matter).
Joe
I've looked at those pictures and that's what I saw - pictures. Both skaters have excellent lean on the edges (in the pictures). What you don't see, is how long they hold that edge. A good spiral has a free leg higher than her body; a strong edge, and the ability to hold it for a time. Those photos do no show the hold of the spiral (or the speed, for that matter).
Joe
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
CBurley, thanks for your posts and welcome to Golden Skate. I look forward to reading about your progress as an adult skater (is that right, or are you an up-and-coming future champ?). It is very interesting to read about such things as spirals and edges from someone who is in the process of learning them.
Mathman
I hope they don't, too. They would laugh themselves silly.
Mathman
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- Joined
- Jul 26, 2003
cburley said:
I know that's very true in ballet. Especially when you tire, it's easy to "grasp," and to end up using a lot of energy to stabilize, which makes you feel more balanced. When you relax -- e.g. remove shoulder from ear -- and go back over the hip, it's a constant reminder that "correct" is often "easier" -- less energy involved and less tension.
Great my post will be # 115, lets push this to 150
Before I look at the pictuers, I thought I know what is a lean , now the pictures shed more light, and I am not sure what exactly is meant by lean.
I used to think that lean is directly proportional to the angle between ice and blade. I notice in some pictures that for some skaters, there is more contributing factor than just the blade/ ice angle to the lean. Some skaters bend the ankles, therefore the ankles played a part too (at least visually).
I want to know about the angles @1 and @2 (from skater 1 and 2), and I want more than just an asssessment from the naked eye.
Now about measuring the angles,
, I don't have a protractor. So I did a different experiment. I printed both pictures on paper. Fortunately both pictures were framed, with a horizontal base line. I aligned my clear plastic ruler over the blade, and then drew a line from the blade to the horizontal base. Then I cut out the angles @1 and @2. There really is a difference, I can not tell whether it is a 4 degree or 6 degree or 10 degree difference, but there is a difference.
I drew a line from the tangent at the ankle of one of the skaters (who had a bend at the ankle) , to the point where @2 touched the horizontal base, guess what the angle @3 indeed is smaller than @2. So the overall lean visually in this case is not dependent solely on @2, @3 played a part.
Before I look at the pictuers, I thought I know what is a lean , now the pictures shed more light, and I am not sure what exactly is meant by lean.
I used to think that lean is directly proportional to the angle between ice and blade. I notice in some pictures that for some skaters, there is more contributing factor than just the blade/ ice angle to the lean. Some skaters bend the ankles, therefore the ankles played a part too (at least visually).
I want to know about the angles @1 and @2 (from skater 1 and 2), and I want more than just an asssessment from the naked eye.
Now about measuring the angles,
, I don't have a protractor. So I did a different experiment. I printed both pictures on paper. Fortunately both pictures were framed, with a horizontal base line. I aligned my clear plastic ruler over the blade, and then drew a line from the blade to the horizontal base. Then I cut out the angles @1 and @2. There really is a difference, I can not tell whether it is a 4 degree or 6 degree or 10 degree difference, but there is a difference.I drew a line from the tangent at the ankle of one of the skaters (who had a bend at the ankle) , to the point where @2 touched the horizontal base, guess what the angle @3 indeed is smaller than @2. So the overall lean visually in this case is not dependent solely on @2, @3 played a part.
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I'm confused on how measuring the angle of the blade to the ice is going to help based on 2 pictures. If the Michelle picture was during her change-edge spiral, how do you know if the picture was taken at the deepest point of her edge or in the middle of changing the edge?
Now if someone wants to take several still shots of Michelle's and Sasha's spiral, measure away.
Edited: I mean taking several still shots of the same spiral at different points by holding down the camera button. Better yet, just do a frame by frame on your vcrs and measure the tv.
Now if someone wants to take several still shots of Michelle's and Sasha's spiral, measure away.
Edited: I mean taking several still shots of the same spiral at different points by holding down the camera button. Better yet, just do a frame by frame on your vcrs and measure the tv.
- Joined
- Jul 28, 2003
You wanna see some lean on an inside edge?
Check out Sarah:
[url]http://pro.corbis.com/images/watermark/67/14088352/UP959460.jpg[/URL]
Check out Sarah:
[url]http://pro.corbis.com/images/watermark/67/14088352/UP959460.jpg[/URL]
But that spiral still coud have improvements, like improving the bent knee. Or is that just the starting position?rtureck said:
rtureck, I'm glad you notice this too. Actually if you check Sasha's spiral there are a few of them has the ankles factor too. The most obvious ones was Sasha's spread eagle position, not only ankles but the body position too.
Brian B. has a great spread eagle trace on a huge circle with great lean because of he has the great speed going into his spread eagle. Michelle K. has a good spread eagle not seen often from lady trace on a smaller circle with great lean because of her good speed going into the spread eagle. If you pay attention to Sasha's blades the @ between blades and ice about the same as Kirk, but Sasha's body and ankle position makes it looks like she has the big lean. Looks like they both lack of speed going into spread eagle position.
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