Sashas Edges | Page 8 | Golden Skate

Sashas Edges

registered

On the Ice
Joined
Aug 17, 2003
Spiral is a beautiful element, especially in the lady's singles skating, but it's not worth much, where placements and marks are concern. Michelle and Sarah won their titles because of the over all clean skating, not simply because judges were impressed by this or that element.

Now, don't throw any tomatoes at me, :D but I feel pretty good in the company of a bunch of Olympic and World champions, who happen to be impressed with Sasha's spiral -- the most.:p
 

cburley

Spectator
Joined
Aug 30, 2003
A Lutz is a takeoff from an outside edge, not an inside one, else it's a "flutz" (a 0.1 deduction for a last-moment transition, a "serious error" for a longer inside edge before the takeoff).

It's among the hardest jumps because the rotation is counter to the curve of the takeoff edge. It's a toe-assisted jump, like the Toe Loop, but while that rotates in the direction of the curve (typically the right back outside edge curve, i.e. counterclockwise), the Lutz takes off, when done properly, from a left-turning curve described by the left back outside edge. (And, instead of the left toepick going in, the right one does.)

In that sense, the Lutz is more like (and in roughly the same category of difficulty as) the Toe Walley, which takes off on the other inside edge, but is "cheated" often enough that it is now officially treated similar to a Toe Loop in certain cases (mainly, because judges have a hard time telling one from the other, when the skater takes off on a flat, or nearly so).

I haven't done any of these jumps yet, having only recently started doing Waltz jumps in sequence (which is pretty cool, and has me swaggering around the rink like I just won Olympic Gold, but, hey ;-).

But my wife has had all sorts of struggles regaining, then losing, then regaining her Lutz.

And my impression is that the main challenge of the Lutz is to use the speed going into the jump against the toepick to change the direction of rotation of the skater to achieve the counter rotation (to go counter clockwise, after taking off on a clockwise curve).

That takes more of a pick-in and push-against effort than is required, as far as I can tell, of the other jumps. I mean, when I do a Waltz jump, I use the pick agains tthe ice to jump off and accelerate my existing counterclockwise rotation in the air, but with a Lutz you have to establish a rotation in the other direction. (And with a Toe Walley, instead of pushing against the ice with the pick, I guess you have to pull it towards you to change the rotation.)

So maybe the best Lutzes are those that don't just take off on an outside edge, but have true clockwise-rotation entrances requiring the skater to truly establish a counter-rotation as part of the takeoff. Otherwise all the skater needs to do is be flexible enough, after possibly establishing counter-clockwise rotation to make things easy, to do a bit of an outside edge before the takeoff to call it a "Lutz". That'd make me just fall over, hard, but maybe some skaters could make it work.

Anyway, the only difference between a Lutz and a Flip is that you take off on the inside edge of that (usually left) skate when you do a Flip, so you're already establishing the rotation on-ice that you'll be turning in while airborn.

Hence the term "Flutz" -- or "Flip-like Lutz" -- when a skater makes like they're going to do a Lutz, but instead switches to the inside edge just before takeoff. Makes things easier.

Oh, and at least a few judges would really love it if you Lutzers would do some between the blue lines for a change!! Seriously, you might get an extra .2, .3, or even .4, from what I've heard them saying.

Everybody wish me luck this Saturday; I'm supposed to be skating in a show that afternoon/evening, a show full of other students of a skating-fundamentals seminar, most of whom are much better than me, and I'm debuting my own choreographed program, complete with my new-found waltz jumps. I haven't skated in an exhibition or competition in over a year, and then only one of each!
 

registered

On the Ice
Joined
Aug 17, 2003
"Cburley," thanks for clarifying on the Lutz technique.

Good luck to you on Saturday, and if you'll have an opportunity, would you please explain the difference on Flip jump Vs "Lip," (for example, skaters, like V.V., who has a true Lutz, is often criticized for faulty Flip technique).
 

skatepixie

On the Ice
Joined
Aug 2, 2003
a lip is switching to an outside edge on a flip so you are really doing a lutz....

also, a bent free leg on a spiral means that it no longer meets the requirment for a spiral on the NOVICE test....
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
Why the misnomers?

If you toe off from a back outside edge, you're doing either a lutz or a toe loop.

If you take off from a back inside edge, you are doing either a flip or a toe wally.

Flutz and lip were invented to cover up for two the same jumps in a routine but the bottom line if you do a lutz and a flutz you are doing lutz and a flip and you'd better not have another flip in your routine.

Joe
 

hockeyfan228

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Re: Sasha's Insid Edge ....

mzheng said:
Someone mentioned before that why Sasha could not transit her perfect leg alignment on spiral to her Lutz picking alignment. Here are a few snapshots show Sasha's Lutzing.


Comparing Cohen's free leg hip position to Volchkova's, Volchkova's is square with her working hip, while Cohen's is turned in, which makes the free leg angle to the outside. I think this is what makes her roll to the inside edge.
 

cburley

Spectator
Joined
Aug 30, 2003
Bent leg on spiral means not meeting the requirements on a Novice MiF test? Hmm, that's not quite how I read it -- the primary focus is extension, but I don't think that necessarily means an absolutely straight leg. Extension means tension held through the limbs (ideally, to the fingers and/or toes). That can be accomplished, and look quite good, even with bent knees and elbows.

Watching yourself in a mirror, try sticking your arm straight out to the sidewithout otherwise introducing tension through the neck, shoulders, fingers -- i.e. relax the shoulders, let the wrists and fingers droop.

Now try raising your forearm by bending your elbow, twisting the thumb side of your palm away from you and down, extending a stretch all the way through to each and every finger, while raising your head through an elongated neck.

Which position is more "extended"? Which looks more like an elegant, ballet-like position?

If you do it right -- certainly if I do it, and I'm no ballet dancer (I'm barely a figure skater) -- then the second position should look better, even though the elbow is bent, compared to the first position in which the elbow is straight.

So, are there judges that will fail any Novice MiF Spiral Sequence due simply to bent knees? Probably a few; but I'll bet there are many more that will give a truly beautiful such sequence showing excellent extension, or tension, higher marks than a sequence by someone who merely skates on decent edges with their free leg held straight behind them.
 

cburley

Spectator
Joined
Aug 30, 2003
Hadn't heard of "lips" before, and I agree that, in a sense, a Lutz is a Lutz and a Flip is a Flip.

On the other hand, a skater demonstrating clear clockwise rotation entering a jump, preparing on a left back outside (LBO) edge, then transitioning over to a left back inside (LBI) shortly before a counter-rotating takeoff, is pretty clearly signalling an attempt at a Lutz, not a Flip.

Similarly, clear counter-clockwise rotation followed by LBI preparation that ends up on an LBO strongly suggests an attempt at a Flip, not a Lutz.

If well-skated, these changes could be put down as wonderful surprises, as in a Walley executed in the middle of a straightline footwork sequence.

But when these changes don't look all that interesting or surprising -- when they have to be studied to see them as probable mistakes -- then shorthand terms like "Flutz" and "Lip" have their utility, IMO.

I notice, for example, that Salchows look fairly natural and convincing as jumps, even though, when studied carefully, most of them seem to involve far less than one complete revolution between takeoff and landing. It's the nature of the jump, and how it looks in the context of a program, which is inherently an artistic expression.

Similarly, Loops look very natural and flowing, compared to most other jumps.

So a counter-rotating jump should look like one, to the extent it can look natural and flowing, and if it, strictly speaking, has a last-moment edge change that hurts its technical merit, then that's a technical issue -- artistically, most viewers will still see the counter-rotation (on a Flutz) or the continuing rotation (on a Lip), I would think.
 
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hockeyfan228

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
cburley said:

If well-skated, these changes could be put down as wonderful surprises, as in a Walley executed in the middle of a straightline footwork sequence.

There is now an 8 jump element limit for the Men's LP's and a 7 jump element women for the Ladies LP. Combinations/sequences are limited to two of the maximum elements; one may have a three-jump maximum . Two Quads and/or triples can be repeated once, and at least one time the repeated jump must be used in combination or sequence. In addition, sequences are "discounted" by a factor of .8, which is incentive to do jump combos over sequences.

By the CoP the Walley is an expensive choice -- 1/8 of the total jump count. Unless the skater doesn't have many jumps in his/her arsenal and/or can't complete combos but can complete sequences, I can't see the skater making the choice. Why should Drei keep her lovely 2/.5/2 sequence, when by tacking on a 2T to a 3, she can get full combo credit?

What does that have to do with Sasha's -- or anyone else's -- edges? Flutzes will not count as flips, but as flawed lutzes. Lips will not count as lutzes, but as flawed flips.
 

Lucy25

Final Flight
Joined
Jul 31, 2003
I don't find spirals with bent free leg appealing. That's why Michelle's and Sarah's don't quite work for me.
I have NEVER seen Michelle with a bent leg on her spiral. You must be thinking of someone else.

Why do you think Sarah's leg is bent? And why hasn't it ever been pointed out by the commentators? Maybe she can't really straighten her leg? I remember seeing a Romanian gymnast like that many years ago. The commentators did point it out to the viewing audience so that we did not think her leg was always bent.

If Sarah's inside edge is so strong, how come she's not capable of taking off it on her Lutz jumps?
Doesn't she rotate in the opposite direction (than the other skaters), which makes it almost impossible for her to hold that outside leg? I remember reading an article where Robin Waggoner pointed that out. My question then was, and still is, "Why didn't she learn it correctly in the first place??" To me, that just was not a very good excuse.
 

kemy

Rinkside
Joined
Aug 20, 2003
Lucy25 said:

Doesn't she rotate in the opposite direction (than the other skaters), which makes it almost impossible for her to hold that outside leg?

Nah...shouldn't matter...the jump is the same, except in the direction. She chooses to skate opposite because it's more comfortable. Also, her STRONG inside edge gives her a STRONG flutz...
 

cburley

Spectator
Joined
Aug 30, 2003
hockeyfan228 said:
There is now an 8 jump element limit...By the CoP the Walley is an expensive choice...

What does that have to do with Sasha's -- or anyone else's -- edges? Flutzes will not count as flips, but as flawed lutzes. Lips will not count as lutzes, but as flawed flips.

I don't recall the detailed requirements, but it's possible that a Walley in the middle of a footwork sequence isn't counted against the jumps at the Senior level. Else, you're right, if the skater is competing under such rules and has other strong jumps, a single Walley is probably going to just hurt them.

A triple Walley, on the other hand....:love:

What does all this have to do with edges, anyway? Except in talking about Sasha's edges, comparing them to Sarah's, somebody asked about the relationship of strong inside edges to Lutzes, and I got to rambling.

Oh, and, really, the relationship between edges and jumps is basically this: without great edges, you are really limited in terms of jumping, not just in terms of raw rotation in the air (which don't involve edges so much as spin positions and height), but in terms of flow both into and out of the jumps.

And, folks, flow counts in figure skating. Plushenko doing a quad-triple-double combination, with the double going back in the direction he came with no flow, actually might have hurt him in the eyes of some judges, compared to if he did just the quad-triple.

Athleticism in figure skating is wonderful, but flow is even more important, and without solid edges and all that goes into producing them on things like spirals, it's really hard to flow into and out of jumps beautifully.
 

dlkksk8fan

Medalist
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
........wow it took me all day just to get through this one thread:laugh: And just when I got at the end it ended up being about toe jumps.

Anyway I think this is about Sashas Edges. I'm going to hold my opinion until I see her skate this season. As far as her spiral goes I think hers is fabulous. I don't think she could get any more split and extension out of it without getting her leg in front of her face:p

My big beef about spirals are when the free leg is bent. I would rather see a leg that is lower with no bend, then one that is raised to high and bent since that ruins the line of the leg. Unless the leg is intentionally bent for choreographic reasons keep it straight!

Now how did we get talking about spirals when the topic was edges:confused:
 

cburley

Spectator
Joined
Aug 30, 2003
dlkksk8fan said:
I don't think [Sasha] could get any more split and extension out of it without getting her leg in front of her face

Oh, she can do that. If you watch her during practice, you might get to see that happen. Occasionally her nose itches during her spiral, but she's focusing so intently on her arm and hand placement that she just extends her leg and scratches her nose with her toe pick.

In fact, someday she might become the first skater to ever toepick her nose during a competition! :laugh:

And if you've never seen Evgeny Plushenko shave while skating, well, just use your imagination. :eek:
 
Joined
Aug 3, 2003
This is going back a few days and many pages. GOLLY, it's hard to keep up with this thread.

Mathman,
You asked if turning out the free leg from the hip on a spiral was a good thing. Yes, though it's not as big a deal in skating as it is in ballet. The place where most skaters increase their turnout (external hip rotation) if they don't have it naturally from the hip is by rotating the lower back. Some can also increase their amplitude a few degrees by rotating the lumbar spine. Also, the higher the free leg goes, no matter how much natural turnout one has from the hip, the more likely there is going to be rotation in the lower back. Elite ballet dancers have to be born with the anatomy and work for years on the technique to get the 180-degree "penche" arabesque with maximal turnout from the hip and minimal rotation in the lower back. But with skaters, IMO, the demands and expectations for "ballet ideal" alignment are not and should not be that important, unless you start getting into Nelidina-like turned in free legs with bent knees that barely go higher than the hip. Skaters have that 1/8th inch blade and all that ICE to worry about. If I were a judge and comparing say Michelle, Irina, and Sasha's spirals, I wouldn't give a hoot about how much one might turn out from the hip better than the others. There are too many other factors that are far more important. IMO turn out from the hip makes the line nicer, if all else is good, but it just ain't that big a deal.

What I want are those Michelle protractors and Sasha protractors, lol. For next year's big competitions, I want to hawk "Favorite Skater Rglasses." "Love Plushenko? Buy my Plush Rglasses, look through them and I guarantee that EVERYTHING Plush does will look better than everybody else!" And so on for all the other top skaters. Have more than one favorite? No prob. Just wear your "Michelle Rglasses" when Michelle and then change to your "Sasha Rglasses" when Sasha skates. Both Michelle and Sasha will look magnificent through your Rglasses and every skater you're not crazy about will look crummy!

I'm gonna sell a million of 'em!

EricAba,
You posted way back when,"Speaking of edging and speed, how does the Sasha from the 2001-2002 season compare with the Sasha from this past season? Can't tell speed from the videotapes, but it seems to me that Sasha's edging was much more secure in the Olympic season than last. She also seemed a bit 'beefier' back then."

You are correct, IMO, about Sasha having more muscle mass in '01-02, ie "beefier" and that her edges were more secure. I think she did not continue the intensive off-ice training she had been doing with Nicks (mostly Pilates) and with Tarasova, lost both weight and muscle mass. It did not help Sasha the way I see it and in fact did make her weaker in terms of edging, speed, and getting down into the ice. Tarasova has SAID Sasha is going to do a lot of off-ice conditioning this season. I certainly hope so and that it's with someone really competent. I think Michelle's off-ice trainer helped her a lot in terms of adding power to her lyricism, which is one of the things I found so exciting about Michelle's skating this year. If you notice, Michelle increased muscle mass in her upper body, whereas Sasha lost it. Strength in the upper body, especially in the muscle that pull the arms in fast and tight for rotation in a jump, is very important for jumping, particularly 3/3 combos. Upper body muscle mass and strength also helps stabilize the spine on the vertical axis while rotating. Of course a lot of things are important in skating, but with Sasha I think we see an interesting example of a skater losing a certain amout of skill because of loss of conditioning. You don't want an Ahhnuld build, but the right amount of strength and muscle mass in the right places in a skater is an important part of the whole approach.

Most importantly, SHINE!
I LOVE your avatar! Who is the artist and where did you get it? I've always liked BERTHES GHOST's avatar too. Who did yours?

Rgirl
PS to Joe, Mathman, Tonichelle, or Heather: I put in my custom title on my info page days ago like it said in the directions, but it's still not showing up. I'm so bummed! Can one of you help me out? I know, I shouldn't ask here, but I was thinking of it and it might fall out of my brain as soon as I close this thread.
 
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gezando

Final Flight
Joined
Jul 30, 2003
registered said:
Spiral is a beautiful element, especially in the lady's singles skating, but it's not worth much, where placements and marks are concern. Michelle and Sarah won their titles because of the over all clean skating, not simply because judges were impressed by this or that element.


You mean to tell us after all your attention here about how Sasha is #1 in sprial, she is good at something that isn't worth much? :D



I feel pretty good in the company of a bunch of Olympic and World champions, who happen to be impressed with Sasha's spiral -- the most.

;) but Sarah belongs to that exlusive Olympic gold medalist club, so her opinion must count more than the judges, according to you. I thought Sarah said her spiral is the best #1.

Serious, I think Sasha's spiral is top 6 in the world, the other 5 who are ahead are Olympic and world medalists. :)
 
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Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Rgirl, did you click on "Submit Modifications" after you typed in your custom title in the dialogue box? Do not check "reset." About your idea to sell "favorite-colored glasses," -- I think most of us already have ours, LOL.

Mathman
 
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registered

On the Ice
Joined
Aug 17, 2003
gezando said:
You mean to tell us after all your attention here about how Sasha is #1 in sprial, she is good at something that isn't worth much?




;) but Sarah belongs to that exlusive Olympic gold medalist club, so her opinion must count more than the judges, according to you. I thought Sarah said her spiral is the best #1.

Serious, I think Sasha's spiral is top 6 in the world, the other 5 who are ahead are Olympic and world medalists. :)


You're entitle to your opinion that Sarah's spiral is #1, but when did Sarah said that "hers is the best#1?"

I heard commentary of Mr. Button, Peggy, Tracy Wilson, Suzy Wynn and others, and they all said that Sasha's spiral is the best in the world today. And those true professionals do belong to the exclusive club of Olympic and World champions.

Fact is, without landing all the jumps, the most gorgeous spiral won't win you a title. But Sasha's is surely good enough to propell her to being #2 skater in the world, surpassed only by Irena Slutskaya.
 

maxell1313

Rinkside
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
But Sasha's is surely good enough to propell her to being #2 skater in the world, surpassed only by Irena Slutskaya.

How is Sasha the #2 skater in the world? Or are you going by the ISU "rankings" that doesn't even have the current ladies World Champion in the top 3? :laugh: And yes, I'm aware of how the ISU calculates their rankings and I think it's one more sign the ISU has lost their collective minds.
 

hockeyfan228

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
cburley said:


What does all this have to do with edges, anyway? Except in talking about Sasha's edges, comparing them to Sarah's, somebody asked about the relationship of strong inside edges to Lutzes, and I got to rambling.

Sorry, I wasn't trying to tease you, just making fun of myself. My friends always tell me that now matter how far I detour, I always return to the original topic, even if it's 30 minutes later, via an alternate universe.
 
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