Sashas Edges

I don't know how the Walley got tied up in Sasha's edges but that jump when done correctly is not so easy. It is much moe difficult than a loop jump (which it kind of mimics).

The main reason for the difficulty is the back inside edge take off and rotating to land on a back outside edge on the same foot. Can you imagine doing a triple walley?

The toe wally and the toe loop are to me cop outs as far as difficulties are concerend but they look effective for footwork. just my opinion.

Regarding Sasha, I would say her edges are more than adequate. Not exactly Hammil's or Botianos but ok.

Let's look closely at Campbells - not for medals but for elements like edges and a sundry other parts of figue skating.

Joe

registered said:

You're entitle to your opinion that Sarah's spiral is #1, but when did Sarah said that "hers is the best#1?"

I heard commentary of Mr. Button, Peggy, Tracy Wilson, Suzy Wynn and others, and they all said that Sasha's spiral is the best in the world today. And those true professionals do belong to the exclusive club of Olympic and World champions.

Fact is, without landing all the jumps, the most gorgeous spiral won't win you a title. But Sasha's is surely good enough to propell her to being #2 skater in the world, surpassed only by Irena Slutskaya.

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Sorry registered, but Dick and Peggy also said Sasha is the most technically superior skater in the world, and we all know that isn't the whole truth. She can't even land her triples half of the time, or do spins without falling. That's not "technically superior" to anyone. Dick also said Sasha's smile is fake, and I seem to recall more than a few Sasha fans getting upset about that comment.
I agree that the rankings are not anything of importance. Where is Fumie? Where is Michelle Kwan? Where is Sarah Hughes? They should all be ranked above Sasha, and probably Irina.

Fossi said:

Sorry registered, but Dick and Peggy also said Sasha is the most technically superior skater in the world, and we all know that isn't the whole truth. She can't even land her triples half of the time, or do spins without falling. That's not "technically superior" to anyone. Dick also said Sasha's smile is fake, and I seem to recall more than a few Sasha fans getting upset about that comment.
I agree that the rankings are not anything of importance. Where is Fumie? Where is Michelle Kwan? Where is Sarah Hughes? They should all be ranked above Sasha, and probably Irina.

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I know, I know, the fact that Peggy and others are raving about Sasha's skating, even when she makes mistakes, upsets many of Sasha's ill wishers. Now try to imagine what they'll say, after she'll deliver a clean skate?

Of course, ISU doesn't know how to rank skaters, and Olympic and World champions -- commentators, are not the true experts in the field...

Everyone's ranked based on the same set of rules. Michelle won the World championship, but it's only one competition. She was the best there, and title is hers, but she didn't do enough competitions, comparing to others, and it reflects in the ranking. Sarah competed even less, and didn't do well at Worlds, she also skipped last year's worlds championship.

The course this discussion is taking, only proves to me time and again, that at least half of the rant about Sasha, not having good edges control, has to do with unwillingness to accept, that she's a major player in skating, and has no basis in reality.

Rgirl! Long time no see! I'm glad you LOVE my avatar...I just feel it captures Sandhu's eccentric quality completely! I got it from the Golden Skate avatar collection. There's a ton to choose from!

Fossi said:

She can't even land her triples half of the time, or do spins without falling.

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I'm sure you can make your point without unnecessary exaggeration (there's enough of it from the other side ). Counting all her triples she certainly lands them more that "half the time", and how many times have you really seen her fall on a spin?

registered said:

The course this discussion is taking, only proves to me time and again, that at least half of the rant about Sasha, not having good edges control, has to do with unwillingness to accept, that she's a major player in skating, and has no basis in reality.

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Well, I actually like Sasha's skating when she is not fall. Her certainlly is not the worst in edge department among the elite ladies but her control of edges neither at the top with Sarah, Irina, Fummie, Michelle.

I was expecting her play major role in 2002 Oly, 2002 world, and mostly 2003 Nats and worlds; but that didn't happened.

I know she'll be the major player in skating once she got herself together and is able to deliver back to back clean programs. But I also think if Michelle and Irina retired Sasha still can win without that back to back clean programs.

registered said:

I know, I know, the fact that Peggy and others are raving about Sasha's skating, even when she makes mistakes, upsets many of Sasha's ill wishers.

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So some people here are not worshipping and praising Sasha at your intensity, and you call them ill wishers. I guess that is the definition / standard you go by at board #1 and 2, but rules over there do not extend over here. Some people here praise her, and think she is neither the best or the worst, but you have to inisist that Sasha is the #1 best in everything, and when people disagree with you they get a label as Sasha ill wishers.

rtureck said:

So some people here are not worshipping and praising Sasha at your intensity, and you call them ill wishers. I guess that is the definition / standard you go by at board #1 and 2, but rules over there do not extend over here. People here praise her, and think she is neither the best or the worst, but you have to inisist that Sasha is the #1 best in everything, and when people disagree with you they get a label as Sasha ill wishers.

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Uh-oh. What a feely - touchy response. I hope I'm not breaking any board rules, when I praise MY favorite skater? And I noticed, there are other "people" here, that also happen to praise Sasha.

I'm also curious, what are the boards #1 and #2? And why does it matter, if I go to boards #1, 2, 3, 4 and 5? Is there any specific rule about it too?

registered said:

Uh-oh. What a feely - touchy response. I hope I'm not breaking any board rules, when I praise MY favorite skater? And I noticed, there are other "people" here, that also happen to praise Sasha.

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Sure you can praise your favorite skater, but you expect others to feel the same, and when they don't you label them as "ill wishers" and "bashing". JMHO, your messages are a tad too sensitive.

oops. I should have phrased my response about Sasha's jumps differently. I just disagree that she is technically superior to any of the elite skaters at the moment. Perhaps if she would skate clean programs this would be a more accurate statement.
And registered, I am not an "ill wisher." But I don't think everything Dick, Peggy (and whoever else you mentioned) are accurate 100% of the time with their comments. My comments about her being "technically superior" and Dick's comment in reference to her fake smile are examples this. I never said I don't like Sasha. I just don't think she is all that you are saying she is. You're weighing too much on what commentators and the new ranking system say, and not enough on what actually goes on when the skaters are on the ice.

Fossi said:

oops. I should have phrased my response about Sasha's jumps differently. I just disagree that she is technically superior to any of the elite skaters at the moment. Perhaps if she would skate clean programs this would be a more accurate statement.
And registered, I am not an "ill wisher." But I don't think everything Dick, Peggy (and whoever else you mentioned) are accurate 100% of the time with their comments. My comments about her being "technically superior" and Dick's comment in reference to her fake smile are examples this. I never said I don't like Sasha. I just don't think she is all that you are saying she is. You're weighing too much on what commentators and the new ranking system say, and not enough on what actually goes on when the skaters are on the ice.

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And you are entitled to your opinion, Fossi. I provided some quotes, just to show that my own opinion's shared by very reputable people in skating. I don't pay much attention to Dick's "smile" comment, because it's not a required element in the program, obviously, and actually, what he said, was that Sasha's smile "didn't quite touch her eyes." Just to be accurate, he never said that her smile is fake. And if we'll quote him in context, his observation was made after Sasha made some major mistakes in her program, and she most likely felt like crying, than smiling at that given moment.
I read interviews with skaters like Kristi, Oksana and Maria, and they also said that they "adore" Sasha's skating. I'd rather listen to opinion of those professionals, than to that of some regular skating fans. But that's just me.

Shine, Good to see you again, too. Thanks for the tip on the avatars. You're right, yours DOES capture the eccentric mystery of Eman. Well done!

Mathman, Thanks re custom titles. I thought I did what you said, but I'll try again.

And about the Favorite Skater Rglasses: Very true, lol, that we all already have ours. But the ones I would sell would be very fancy, like Elton John glasses ca 1970. Michelle Rglasses would have clean simple lines -- think Frank Lloyd Wright stained glass. Sasha Rglasses would have long curves and extensions coming off of them. Irina Rglasses would have electric lights built into them. That way at competitions, you could tell who was rooting for whom by the style of their Rglasses. And believe me, if you think Michelle looks good now, wait till you see her through your Mathman customized pair of Michelle Rglasses. She'll be skating naked

Windspiirit, I think you make an excellent point about negative exaggeration. I don't mind positive exaggeration in the form of gushing after a skater has had a particularly awesome event or season. Being able to share those emotions with others is part of the fun of a forum, IMO. But I do get tired of negative exaggeration involving any skater someone doesn't like only because it takes away from the validity of the discussion.

With Sasha, for example, during her eight competitions (including the Canadian Open and Crest Whitestrips -- love those sponsor-named competitions; when are we going to get the Tampax Open?) of last season, Sasha fell on a spin once. She got wobbly and somewhat out of control on her final spin series at the Campbell's Soup Bowl, but she stayed on her blades. The fall was at Worlds on her camel spin after she'd gone to the inside edge part of the spin. Sasha said she caught an edge on a rut in the ice. Or she could have gone a little too deep into that inside edge and lost her balance. Whatever the cause, falling once on a spin in a nine-competition season hardly qualifies for "She can't even...do spins without falling." Same thing with the "falls on half her jumps" comment. Criticism is of course another fun part of the forum, but IMO there is plenty to criticize on most skaters without making things up.

As for the rankings, it never fails to impress me how the rankings are either "great" or "meaningless" depending on how one's favorite skaters are ranked For one thing, the current rankings are for the year 2002, not the '02-03 season. So Sasha's ranking is based on how she placed in ISU sanctioned competitions for 2002, including her fourth place finishes at the Olympics and Worlds, her two gold and one silver at the '02 GP events, and possibly her gold medal at the Crest Whitestrips competition, which I don't know if the ISU counts. Irina is number one because of how she placed at ISU events used to calculate rankings in 2002. True, a case could and perhaps should be made that the ISU should change the ranking system and go by the skating season year (ie, events in September of one year through Worlds of the next) rather than the calendar year, and that events such as Worlds and the Olympics should have more weight, but that's a separate subject. If the rankings are one more sign that the ISU has lost its collective mind, then all those years Michelle was number one are meaningless too because they used the same system then as now. And I would not go along with Michelle's number one status being "meaningless."

But even if we look at Sasha's '02-03 season of eight competitions (going by the USFSA News), she won four gold medals, one silver, one bronze, and two pewter (4th place finishes at Campbell's and Worlds). IMO, that is still an impressive record and certainly and improvement over last season when I don't think she even made the podium in any of her GP events, though I'm not sure about that. Anyway, whichever skater you feel is technically better than Sasha, which is indeed the case at least with Michelle, and thus should be ahead of Sasha in the rankings, the fact is that every skater is held to the same standard. If rankings mattered that much to Michelle, I think she would have skated in more events. Besides, what people remember are Michelle's amazing performances at Nationals and Worlds, not a number on a list.

Getting back to the topic of Sasha's edges (12 pages on Sasha's edges -- Oy!), I think they were more secure last season, but that this season she took more chances with her edges, for example, the deep inside edge on her camel spin. IMO, she needs to get back the muscle mass she lost this season, which I think she lost because she did not continue her off-ice training. According to Tarasova, an off-ice training regimen will be part of Sasha's training this year. I hope so; I think she needs it.

I think the reason Sasha's edges were not as secure and her speed not as fast as last year has to do with the change to Tarasova. Sasha lost some of her technique with Tarasova, IMO, but I think she gained a better perspective on skating and competition, and her skating in general is more fluid and connected, plus the choreography is better. Sasha is, lest we forget, only Tarasova's third singles skater and her first US skater. Coaches have learning curves too. With Kulik and Yagudin, I think they came to Tarasova with all those years of great Russian training in the basics and Tarasova helped give them the "sizzle."

With Cohen, perhaps Tarasova is finding out that she needs to change her approach. IMO, Sasha has natural charisma when she is skating well; it's her basics and her mindset that needed work. I think Tarasova did a great job with Sasha psychologically but did not work enough with her on the technical basics. I hope there is more emphasis on the latter this season. I know I saw what a positive difference the right off-ice training made for Michelle's skating. Sasha needs more than that, IMO, including more concentration on edges and speed on the ice as well as full run-throughs with jumps. We shall see.
Rgirl

This is such a vigorous thread, with people posting day and night, I can't keep up. A few thoughts:

About Dick, Peggy, etc., heaping on the praise. They gush over every American skater, Michelle, Sarah, Sasha, AP, Jenny K. And why not? These are all beautiful skaters, and remember, it’s the commentators' main job to stir up interest in figure skating among television viewers.

About whether Sasha has become a "major player." The length of this thread alone proves it.

About ill wishing. Come on now, this is figure skating, not the North Korean Nuclear Disarmament Conference.

About Rgirl’s version of the Michelle colored glasses...um, never mind.

About edges generally, my favorite sentence on this thread so far was the following, by CBurley:

Athleticism in figure skating is wonderful, but flow is even more important, and without solid edges and all that goes into producing them on things like spirals, it's really hard to flow into and out of jumps beautifully.

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Mathman

"I don't pay much attention to Dick's "smile" comment, because it's not a required element in the program, obviously, and actually, what he said, was that Sasha's smile "didn't quite touch her eyes." "

Actually, what Papa Dick said was that the smile didn't quite 'reach' her eyes.

Also, at the GPF, I believe it was Terry Gannon who asked Peggy if Sasha was the best skater in the world today, and her reply was was something to the effect of "If she's on, she CAN be." Doesn't exactly sound like a coronation in my book.

Don't get me wrong, I would love to see Sasha clean up this season and wind up on top. That being said, she's got most of her 'assets' down pat - it's her skating 'liabilities' that she needs to focus on. Otherwise, she'll retain her role as the greatest skater that never was.......

My friends always tell me that now matter how far I detour, I always return to the original topic, even if it's 30 minutes later, via an alternate universe.

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Well, we've got that in common, at the very least! :\

SkateCynic said:

"I don't pay much attention to Dick's "smile" comment, because it's not a required element in the program, obviously, and actually, what he said, was that Sasha's smile "didn't quite touch her eyes." "

Actually, what Papa Dick said was that the smile didn't quite 'reach' her eyes.

Also, at the GPF, I believe it was Terry Gannon who asked Peggy if Sasha was the best skater in the world today, and her reply was was something to the effect of "If she's on, she CAN be." Doesn't exactly sound like a coronation in my book.

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Ultimately, to become one of the greatest of the sport, Sasha needs to learn how "to harness all that talent," as Peggy said, and stop falling apart under intense mental pressure. Without delivering clean programs (well, at least most of the time), winning of the major titles would become almost impossible.

But I can definitely trust my own eyes, and give credit, where credit is due. Peggy said ant GPF "technically Sasha is the most brilliant skater in the world today, and yes, she could become the best in the world." There's no way on Earth, that a skater with bad edging technique would be praised for her technical merit by figure skating's greatest.

Only time would tell weather or not Sasha would find a mental toughness, and stop making "silly mistakes" at the important competitions. But even now, today, and I happen to appreciate many other skaters, I think Sasha is a true skating phenomena. I hope she'll stay healthy for the years to come, and push the sport to the new highs.

Look Sasha is the No.1 USA entry into Ladies Figure Skating this season, and as such her fans have to go with the punches.

Michelle is the No.1 USA mystery into Ladies Figure Skating this season, and other than the usual summer nitpicking, no one seems to be punching. Is MK losing it?

I guarantee both will be on the podium at Nats despite the edges and the 3/3s. Held-up, if necessary.

Joe

Joesitz said:

Look Sasha is the No.1 USA entry into Ladies Figure Skating this season, and as such her fans have to go with the punches.

Michelle is the No.1 USA mystery into Ladies Figure Skating this season, and other than the usual summer nitpicking, no one seems to be punching. Is MK losing it?

I guarantee both will be on the podium at Nats despite the edges and the 3/3s. Held-up, if necessary.

Joe

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Joe, what I am most impressed with on this thread is that we have been going back and forth about Sasha's talents and prospects for 12 pages now and nobody has jumped in to bash Michelle or anyone else. I think we all deserve a pat on the back.

Mathman

Mathman,
Pat ourselves on the back, eh? Well, how about if I say, "Michelle's edges s**k?"
Rgirl
Just kidding to one and all, of course. I just couldn't let Mathman's open invite for a joke pass by. Lest anyone have any misconceptions, I think Michelle's edges have always been just about the best in the biz and this year I think they became even better. Among the ladies, I think only Irina is in Michelle's class edges-wise. So if anyone was offended by the original, shorter version of this joke, I apologize. I had just posted my 3,000th post, we had been partying a lot (see Celebrations folder), and I admit I was a little tipsy. Truly, no offense intended. I should have made it more obvious that it was a joke.