Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
I don't think Joe is saying that you must rotate one way or the other, but rather that one jump cannot be distinguished from another by the rotation in the air. Or, for that matter, by the landing foot or landing edge.

If this is correct, then the only way to tell whether the jump you just did is a Lutz, a flip, or a toe-loop, is the take-off edge.
OK.

Well, the difference between a lutz and a toe loop involves the direction of rotation in relation to the direction of travel of the takeoff edge. If I tell you only that a jump took off from a left back outside edge with a toe assist, you don't know whether it was a lutz or a toe loop until I also tell you which direction it rotated.

Similarly for left back inside edge. Was it a flip or a toe walley?

How do we tell the difference between an intended lutz and an intended flip, especially if we don't have a good view of the blade at the exact instant of takeoff? How about by what edge the blade was on/which direction the skater was traveling as s/he started to put the other toe into the ice, along with the position of the shoulders while reaching back with the pick? Then a closeup of the blade at the end of the pick-and-liftoff process would tell us how successful the skater was in executing that intention.