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Thread: What if the "flutz" and "lip" jumps were ratified?

  1. #61
    it's olympic season :D bethissoawesome's Avatar
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    I understand the conflictions you would have with the Zayak rule if you actually ALLOWED the jump to be written into the program (ex. 3Flutz-3Toe combo). What I was trying to say in my previous argument, which I guess I didn't word quite correctly, was that you could still leave it as the skater would have to declare a 3Lutz-3Toe combo, however if they happen to do a Flutz, it would be given a base value and the GOE would be based on how it was performed, disregarding the edge deduction. So if the skater took off and flutzed, but still maintained a beautiful position in the air with three complete tight revolutions and a clean landing, positive GOEs should be awarded... the consequences would be that your base value is lowered.

    Simply because a lutz with the wrong edge upon entry is not a lutz at all. I used some examples before, so I guess I'll throw in another one. I also do the trapeze... if I was trying to catch a double sommersault but instead only did one but it was performed well, should someone say that it was faulty attempt at a double sommersault or a good single one? In skating, an under-rotated triple jump is given the base value of a double, not the base value of a triple because that is what was "attempted." Any specific jump has a basic definition for its take off... if the jump being "attempted" does not fulfill that definition, why should it be ratified as that jump and be given the same base value? In essence (using the flutz again), I don't see how giving the flutz/"attempted lutz" a different base value than a true lutz is really any different than giving an "attempted triple" that is under-rotated the base value of a double.... so long as it can not be written purposely into the program to violate the Zayak rule.

    A simple solution would just be, for instance, taking 20% off the original value of the true jump that was being attempted, setting that as the corrected base value, and then allowing for positive and negative GOE's based on the execution overlooking the original fault at entry.

    /steps off soapbox
    Last edited by bethissoawesome; 08-18-2008 at 04:10 PM.

  2. #62
    L'art pour l'art Medusa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bethissoawesome View Post
    So if the skater took off and flutzed, but still maintained a beautiful position in the air with three complete tight revolutions and a clean landing, positive GOEs should be awarded...
    Yes, positive GOEs for a Flip. If you intend to do a double sommersault but only do a single - you get credit for the single and no deductions because you didn't do a double. If you attempt a Lutz, but do a Flip - why not give credit and positive GOE for a Flip? The only consequence is that you won't be able to do a 7 Triple program - and since 5 Triples were enough to win the last Worlds and the last Olympics - a 6 Triples program doesn't sound too bad.

  3. #63
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Medusa View Post
    Yes, positive GOEs for a Flip.
    Medusa, I am curious about how you think the following should be scored. A skater intends to do a triple Lutz. She sets up for her jump with a long straight back outside entry edge, resulting in a slight clockwise curve right up until the moment of take-off, then she switches over to the wrong edge at the last moment, completes her three (counterclockwise) rotations and lands with a nice, flowing exit edge.

    Would you give this skater 5.5 (base value for a flip), and, say, +2 GOE because the other aspects of the jump were superior AND she had an unusual and difficult (for a flip) entry?

    That's 7.5 points for a botched Lutz.

    PS. Here's a better one. At Worlds Sarah Meier's second element was 3F+2T. She lipped it, got an "e" for wrong edge, took a -1.14 hit on GOE, and ended up with 5.66 points.

    If they had scored her jump as a Lutz (which it was), it would have got a higher base value and no wrong edge deduction, and she would have ended up with 7.3 points (depending on other GOE factors. She didn't have a Zayak problem because she doubled her second Lutz.)

    Examples like this make me appreciate genekelly's language: "How well did the skater execute the intended element?"

    If she went off the wrong edge, the answer is, "Not very well," and this mistake should be reflected in the scores. She should not be rewarded for mistakes.
    Last edited by Mathman; 08-18-2008 at 06:07 PM.

  4. #64
    L'art pour l'art Medusa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Medusa, I am curious about how you think the following should be scored. A skater intends to do a triple Lutz. She sets up for her jump with a long straight back outside entry edge, resulting in a slight clockwise curve right up until the moment of take-off, then she switches over to the wrong edge at the last moment, completes her three (counterclockwise) rotations and lands with a nice, flowing exit edge.

    Would you give this skater 5.5 (base value for a flip), and, say, +2 GOE because the other aspects of the jump were superior AND she had an unusual and difficult (for a flip) entry?

    That's 7.5 points for a botched Lutz.
    No, it's 7,5 points for a Flip with a creative unusual entrance and outstanding execution. And if that skater wants to do another Flip like that in combination - the skater is welcome to do just that. But that's it than - no more Flips / Lutzes in the program.

    But I get what you mean - some skaters wouldn't get punished much. Let's take Asada's long from last season - the Flutz she had in the first half would be the second Flip after the first one in combination. Therefore she can't do the second Flip in the second half of the program and has to subsitute it with the Salchow (if she has it) or with another Double Axel (only possible if the first jump in the program is actually a Triple Axel and not a Double Axel). Asada wouldn't really suffer much.

    Caroline Zhang would have to substitute one Flutz with a Double Axel and the second Flip in the program with a Triple Toe or a Triple Loop.

    It actually seems like a good solution. It's not that hard on the skaters, the few lost points (difference between Triple Toe and Triple Lutz is just 2 points) can be easily made up in other areas - and we get to see programs where the technique is within the definitions of the jumps.
    -------

    Downside to all this is in my opinion the same with the edge deduction itself: who is really flutzing or lipping and who isn't? If a skater is actually sure of the outside edge on the Lutz but the caller isn't - then the punishment is really harsh if a Flutz is counted as Flip.

    I hate it that those edge calls were a bit moody last season. Some lip-calls were really surprising, Nationals all over the world were amazingly void of any edge calls - and if the viewer starts to review several performances on youtube, you can't but ask yourself how this was edge-called at CoC but not at TEB etc. I actually like the idea in the underrotation-thread with the high-tech control of the jumps, same could be possible for the edges - but, what if it turns out that in the end nearly everybody wobbles their take-off edge on the Flip/Lutz-jumps?

    PS: you can't PS your post after I have already written my answer ! That's cheating.

    You actually don't get points for your intended element in figure skating. If you want a level four spin - but you only do level three, your punishment is that it is only level three, but you still get positive GOE - nobody cares that you acutally wanted a level four spin. Same goes for footwork, Takahashi did his footwork in his short almost the same at every competition, sometimes he got level four (which he probably intended), but even if he only got level three nobody deducted points. If you intend to do a Triple but badly underrotate that attempt - you only get rewarded for double and dinged for the fact that it was an overrotated double. Sarah Meier doubled that second Lutz in her program, she intended to do a Triple, but she didn't get punished for that and got credit for the Double Lutz. So if you try a Lutz, but the edge is wrong - why not give credit for the Flip?
    Last edited by Medusa; 08-18-2008 at 06:18 PM.

  5. #65
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Medusa View Post
    But I get what you mean - some skaters wouldn't get punished much. Let's take Asada's long from last season - the Flutz she had in the first half would be the second Flip after the first one in combination. Therefore she can't do the second Flip in the second half of the program...
    A little bit off topic, but I was just looking at that and I have a question about the scoring rules. Let's say she did exactly what she did:

    3F+3T
    3Flutz -- score this as a flip
    3F+3Lo.

    Does she get credit for the loop? Or does the Zayak rule wipe out the whole combination?
    ...and has to subsitute it with the Salchow (if she has it)...
    One thing this would mean is that skaters would really have to know whether they had a dependable triple Lutz or not. If your triple Lutz is a sometimey, flatzy, wobbly sort of thing, then you would hsve to decide on the fly whether you got the edge down (or rather, whether the technical panel thought you got your edge down), and then change your next flip to a Salchow if you thought you missed.

    This is too many "ifs." So you would not be able to take a chance on including a triple Lutz in your program unless you were reall sure of it. This is probably a good thing, at the elite level.
    ...or with another Double Axel (only possible if the first jump in the program is actually a Triple Axel and not a Double Axel).
    I think you can still do three triple Axels in a program, isn't this right? So Mao would be OK in any case. She has more wiggle room than most skaters because she repeats only one triple, not two (in last years' program).
    ...what if it turns out that in the end nearly everybody wobbles their take-off edge on the Flip/Lutz-jumps?
    If it does, then I think it is good to find this out. That fact might have a considerable bearing on the question of what to do about it, scoring-wise.

    It might, for instance, push us in the direction of the coaches' proposal -- if no-one (ladies) can do these jumps anyway, maybe it is time to re-work the defintions from scratch.

    PS. Hey, you PSed my PS while I was responding to your response!

  6. #66
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Bethisoawsome quote:

    So if the skater took off and flutzed, but still maintained a beautiful position in the air with three complete tight revolutions and a clean landing, positive GOEs should be awarded...

    What happens when skaters flutz and that's what a wrong edge takeoff means, is that they are now in their most comfortable position to do triple airturns and land properly and securly with flow out. Since the very difficult back outside takeoff was avoided, the airturns and landings are much easier because of comfort, and they probably already showed that with a 3Flip although a wrong edge takeoff is not allowed to be called Flip.

    A Flutzer who shows bad airturns and landings after getting into his/her comfort zone should, imo, be ashamed of not being able to do a Lutz or a Flutz. The skater maybe think of early retirement, but of course, that Spiral will get ya.

    Accidental Flutzes and Lips do take place among the top jumpers and they should pay for that mistake. However, habitual Flutzers should show a real Lutz at some competition to prove that the attempt was real.
    Last edited by Joesitz; 08-18-2008 at 06:45 PM.

  7. #67
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    Accidental Flutzes and Lips do take place among the top jumpers and they should pay for that mistake.
    That's the question I am struggling with on this thread. If a flutz is a flip, pure and simple, then it is not a mistake. It's a flip. 5.5 base points and no penalty.

    If "intention" is not an issue, why should there be a penalty for doing a proper flip jump?

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    If a flutz is a flip, pure and simple, then it is not a mistake. It's a flip.
    It's not. It's a shorthand way of describing what went wrong with the lutz takeoff. But except in the minority of cases where there was never any outside edge or counterrotation to begin with, it's a lutz gone wrong, not a flip.

  9. #69
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    It's not. It's a shorthand way of describing what went wrong with the lutz takeoff. But except in the minority of cases where there was never any outside edge or counterrotation to begin with, it's a lutz gone wrong, not a flip.
    That's the way the ISU sees it now. But one of the proposals on the table in this discussion is that we should change this way of looking at it and go strictly by the entry edge definition.

    For the posters who support this view, my question is:

    If you "attempt" a Lutz, but slip over to the inside edge by accident, should you get full credit (5.5 base points) for a flip?

    If you attempt a flip, but mess up and slip over to the outside edge, should you get full Lutz credit (6.0 base points)?

    Medusa has already said "yes." I am curious as to what the other purists think.

  10. #70
    At the rink. Again. mskater93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    A little bit off topic, but I was just looking at that and I have a question about the scoring rules. Let's say she did exactly what she did:

    3F+3T
    3Flutz -- score this as a flip
    3F+3Lo.

    Does she get credit for the loop? Or does the Zayak rule wipe out the whole combination?One thing this would mean is that skaters would really have to know whether they had a dependable triple Lutz or not. If your triple Lutz is a sometimey, flatzy, wobbly sort of thing, then you would hsve to decide on the fly whether you got the edge down (or rather, whether the technical panel thought you got your edge down), and then change your next flip to a Salchow if you thought you missed.
    To answer your question on credit, the third flip jumping pass in this scenario gets no credit if the second jump is counted as a flip. It happened to a few people at Adult Nationals this year - one did 5 double loops (only 2 of any particular jump, at least one in combination is allowed per the adult rules) and one too many single loops was the difference in a championship level this year (differential between the program scores was 0.1 and an entire jump pass was negated because it contained a loop and the skater did 2 single loops previously because one was originally supposed to be a double loop).

  11. #71
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    The real problem with comparing a wrong edge takeoff with the description of the official jump lies with the intent of the skater. Was there really an attempt to execute a proper Lutz or was there a plan to get 5.5 pts less 1.0 for a non Zayak jump? This is moot and not easy to prove.

    However, skaters who flutz are now in their comfort zone to do Triple air turns and Land properly according to standards.

    I conclude that the Flutzer's triple with good landing is not impressive for +GoEs. We see triples and good landings in all jumps. Why should we see the same in a faulty non-jump?

    With this notion of an attempt getting a wrist slap, I would award a +2 for the skaters who do a proper Lutz.

  12. #72
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    However, skaters who flutz are now in their comfort zone to do Triple air turns and Land properly according to standards.
    I think this is a great point.

    Raphael Arutunian threw a fit when they started hittng his student Mao Asada with e's. He said, basically, that Mao has been flutzing all her life, it's not fair to suddenly start giving deductions for it now.

    I think this problem may have been what was really behind the coaches proposal. Yes, everyone makes a mistake now and then. But what about the skater who is unable to do a Lutz at all and doesn't care. The rules allow her to do four flips -- two with straight approaches on a back outside edge before "flipping" over, and two with curving approaches on a back inside edge. This gives her 23 base points, with only a -2 penalty for the two edge calls.

    Is this "making a small mistake," or is it cynically cheating by finding a loop-hole in the rules?

    This is not just maybe and what if. Did Olympic champion Tara Lipinski ever do a jump from a back outside edge in her whole career? Did Olympic champion Sarah Hughes? World champion Mao Asada?

    Did my gal Michelle Kwan?

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    This is not just maybe and what if. Did Olympic champion Tara Lipinski ever do a jump from a back outside edge in her whole career? Did Olympic champion Sarah Hughes? World champion Mao Asada?
    Yes, from the other foot. They were all known for their loop jumps.
    You might want to rephrase that question.

  14. #74
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    MM - Two replies: 1. I do not see a Lutz without a back outside edge entry. It may be another jump but it is not a Lutz. A wrong edge takeoff is a euphonism for 'can't do a lutz'.

    2. I believe most flutzers are from young prepubescent skaters who want to rush into the big time and win an Oly before 16.y.o. Perfecting a Lutz takes time. What's the rush? because the habit will be with them for a long time.

  15. #75
    Keeper of Bab's Death Stare... nubka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skateaug View Post
    Flutz is practically flip and lip is lutz so a flutz should be judged as a flip, not as a bad lutz.
    Wow, try saying that five times fast!

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