What if the "flutz" and "lip" jumps were ratified?

[bethissoawesome]

I was tossing around an idea in my head. What if "flutzes"/"lips" became actual ratified jumps or just given a standard value by ISU under CoP instead of them being considered mistakes on the lutz and flip? What kind of score would be deserved under CoP and what would it to do to skating in general? Should a skater be allowed to plan to do a flutz in their program or not?

Part of me thinks it would be interesting... say giving a flutz the same value as toe-loop, 4.0 (just for an example, or maybe lower)... and instead of looking at it as a lutz and deducting for the edge and negative GOEs, judges would have to instead look at how well it was done, even though it wasn't a lutz, and add positive GOEs if it was done cleanly, etc. Basically, instead of deducting from the lutz, they would be adding/subtracting from a score of a flutz.

Any ideas?

[skateaug]

Flutz is practically flip and lip is lutz so a flutz should be judged as a flip, not as a bad lutz.
I think skaters who can't do certain jumps shouldn't fool the judges.

[mskater93]

A Lutz with a -2 is worth less than a flip with a 0, so the idea for calling the flutz would be to call it as a Lutz with either an "e" or a "!" and take the appropriate GOE deduction so that people with correct edge take offs get more credit for their Lutz and flips than someone with a Flutz and a flip.

No skater is trying to "fool the judges" and in fact, most skaters are trying to perform the element correctly and probably do at home in practice but when they get nervous, release the shoulder and flip the edge back over.

[Joesitz]

Flutz is practically flip and lip is lutz so a flutz should be judged as a flip, not as a bad lutz.
I think skaters who can't do certain jumps shouldn't fool the judges.

Oooooo. I'm with you but the majority do not care about definitions and they do not put much emphasis on the take off but just marvel at the at the air rotations and the landings. I would, like you, give legitimacy to a flutz and lip with half the base value. I don't think judges are fooled. They know the skaters who have never ever executed a true lutz or flip, and they know it is choreographed into their routines to get an extra pass with a -1 for wrong edge but a +2 for good air posture. Why bother learning these jumps properly?

Does the word 'attempt' actually appear in the Rules and Regs?

[gourry]

Oooooo. I'm with you but the majority do not care about definitions and they do not put much emphasis on the take off but just marvel at the at the air rotations and the landings. I would, like you, give legitimacy to a flutz and lip with half the base value. I don't think judges are fooled.

That sounds a bit harsh but I like your half value idea! That would be real compensation for proper jumpers and skaters who sacrifice their seansons to fix their jumps.

By the way I heard flip and lutz are different from lip and flutz because of their entry lines. Is it correct?

[rallycairn]

I was tossing around an idea in my head. What if "flutzes"/"lips" became actual ratified jumps or just given a standard value by ISU under CoP instead of them being considered mistakes on the lutz and flip? What kind of score would be deserved under CoP and what would it to do to skating in general? Should a skater be allowed to plan to do a flutz in their program or not?

By the way I heard flip and lutz are different from lip and flutz because of their entry lines. Is it correct?

I've wondered this, too. I can see where purists wouldn't perhaps want flutz and lip considered valid jumps -- kinda like us Grammar Girls/Geeks who hate it when improper grammar usage happens so often the mistake is finally accepted as proper usage -- but I like the idea here with these jumps. Why not? You could either give them a low base value, as Joe suggested, or jack up the value of the lutz and proper flip even more. And I still like the idea of a huge bonus for skaters who include all of the types of jumps in one program (although we might, MIGHT, say all jumps except axel for the ladies). So that would be an extra incentive to still learn and perform a proper lutz, e.g. (Tho now you'd have two more jumps that could be included, the lip and flutz.) However, all this is only possible if there really is a qualitative difference in the jumps -- that is, can the majority of experts agree there is enough difference between flip and flutz to call the flutz a separate jump. Gourry I think may be on the right track here, but I hope some more skating technicians will weigh in on the question.

[Tinymavy15]

The problem is that a flip that takes of the outside edge is really a lutz. A lutz that switches to the inside is really a flip. If the judges score a flutz as a flip as many viewers seem to would like many medals woudl have been lost becasue of the Zyack rule of not repeating the same jump more than twice (and one of those times must be in combination).

[gkelly]

However, all this is only possible if there really is a qualitative difference in the jumps -- that is, can the majority of experts agree there is enough difference between flip and flutz to call the flutz a separate jump. Gourry I think may be on the right track here, but I hope some more skating technicians will weigh in on the question.

I think there's a continuum in real life practice between being really obvious what jump was intended and being very unclear.

In practice you have to draw the line somewhere "lutz" and "flip" even in the ambiguous cases.

Given additional options in which judges or callers have to decide between three or four possible names for a pick jump that takes off backward and rotates away from the picking foot, there will inevitably be even more ambiguity and disagreements over whether what was called was really what the skater intended.

[Mathman]

By the way I heard flip and lutz are different from lip and flutz because of their entry lines. Is it correct?

I am decidedly a non-expert, but I can often tell the difference between an attempted Lutz that goes wrong and an all-the-way flip.

A Lutz usually has a long, straight entry (telegraphing is a potential problem), then a short curve the "wrong way" on the ice (opposite to the way the jump turns), then the skater muscles around the right way on take-off.

A flutz is like that except that the edge wobbles back to the flip side at the last minute.

For a flip, in the approach the skater is already turning in the right direction (counterclockwise for most skaters) and the curve continues right up to and including the launch. I think that's why the flip is easier than the Lutz for most skaters.

It seem to me that sport of figure skating is kind of drifting away from "edges" altogether. Compulsory figures were all about demonstrating exquisite control of edges. After figures were discontinued, good edge work was not necessarily the ticket to success any more. In the current scoring system for spirals, for instance, a variety of upper body positions counts for more than deep and secure edges.

The Coaches' Committee (I am still not sure exactly who that was) a couple of months ago proposed to the ISU technical committee that the Lutz and the flip should be officially discontinued as separate jumps. Instead there would be one jump defined by "a toe-pick asssisted jump taking off from a back edge and landing on the outside edge of the opposite foot." A skater could choose to do an "outside edge take-off New Jump" or an "inside edge take-off New Jump," at the skaters's preference. But you couldn't do more than two New Jumps (one in combination), altogether, under the Zayak rules.

Maybe a skater who did a really good "outside edge take-off New Jump" could get an extra +GOE for an usual and difficult take-off.

[gourry]

The Coaches' Committee (I am still not sure exactly who that was) a couple of months ago proposed to the ISU technical committee that the Lutz and the flip should be officially discontinued as separate jumps. Instead there would be one jump defined by "a toe-pick asssisted jump taking off from a back edge and landing on the outside edge of the opposite foot." A skater could choose to do an "outside edge take-off New Jump" or an "inside edge take-off New Jump," at the skaters's preference. But you couldn't do more than two New Jumps (one in combination), altogether, under the Zayak rules.

So, that New Jumps include all four flip, lutz, lip and flutz?

I've always thought there are some reasons why lutz gets higher point than flip. That "coaches" obviously have different idea.

[Joesitz]

So, that New Jumps include all four flip, lutz, lip and flutz?

I've always thought there are some reasons why lutz gets higher point than flip. That "coaches" obviously have different idea.

It was assumed that a lutz is more difficult than the flip. I think we could ask Miki and Sasha about that.

I also think that Alois Lutz knew what he wanted in the definition of the jump he invented and which carries his name. IMO, any deviation from that is not the jump which was adopted by the skating world.

What to do with the Flutz and Lip is the notion to consider them to be true but faulty jumps. They get the base value for the 'attempt' and a -1 GoE for the fault. Imo, faulty, yes; true; no. attempt, silly.

[dorispulaski]

I seem to remember a story that Lutz was a hockey player and demonstrated his idea of a figure skating jump in some show in intermission in 1913--it was the first lutz.

Perhaps it was told by Dick Button when Don Jackson did the first triple lutz.

I can't find anything quickly on the web to back up this wacked out memory. Perhaps I dreamed it?

Does anyone else remember?

[rallycairn]

It seem to me that sport of figure skating is kind of drifting away from "edges" altogether. Compulsory figures were all about demonstrating exquisite control of edges. After figures were discontinued, good edge work was not necessarily the ticket to success any more. In the current scoring system for spirals, for instance, a variety of upper body positions counts for more than deep and secure edges.

The Coaches' Committee (I am still not sure exactly who that was) a couple of months ago proposed to the ISU technical committee that the Lutz and the flip should be officially discontinued as separate jumps. Instead there would be one jump defined by "a toe-pick asssisted jump taking off from a back edge and landing on the outside edge of the opposite foot." A skater could choose to do an "outside edge take-off New Jump" or an "inside edge take-off New Jump," at the skaters's preference. But you couldn't do more than two New Jumps (one in combination), altogether, under the Zayak rules.

Maybe a skater who did a really good "outside edge take-off New Jump" could get an extra +GOE for an usual and difficult take-off.

Very well said about the move away from good edge work. Sad. However, given the situation we have, I think what the Coaches Committee proposed sounds like a pretty sensible way of handling the issue. Give the jump a new name and put it out there. I like the idea of extra points (whether extra GOE or some other way of acknowledging it) for the presumably harder lutz outside-edge takeoff. That way, you're not penalizing the flip takeoff, just not giving it the extra reward. But since it's still considered the same jump in essence (and you'd still be held to the Zayak rule), you would hopefully have fewer instances of flutzes disguised as lutzes.


PS: Thanks for fixing my earlier multi-quote message.

[antmanb]

A Lutz usually has a long, straight entry (telegraphing is a potential problem), then a short curve the "wrong way" on the ice (opposite to the way the jump turns), then the skater muscles around the right way on take-off.

The only real thing i'd comment on on the above statement, MM, is the bit in bold. For me it's the flutzes that "muscle round on the take off" hence the switching of the edge. A true good lutz remains on ever deepening outside edge, the arms remain checked strongly counter-rotated and once the skater "pops" off the outside edge/toepick simultaneously it is only after "lift off" that the arms check strongly the other way to get the rotation going in the other dirction.

Ant

[Mathman]

I seem to remember a story that Lutz was a hockey player and demonstrated his idea of a figure skating jump in some show in intermission in 1913--it was the first lutz.

I vaguely remember something like this, but now I can't find much information about Alois Lutz at all. His dates are given as 1898 to 1918. If this is right, he invented his jump at age 15 and died at 20.