Triple Toe Walley

Mafke · Aug 21, 2008

Okay, I thought that a triple toe walley is basically a different entrance for a toe loop (front outside three and a change to the landing foot rather than a plain front inside three on the landing foot).

But some people on another thread were claiming that some skaters take off from an inside edge from the landing foot and cited Elaine Zayak, I looked at a video or two and didn't see it by the time of takeoff she looks like she's on the standard RBO edge and the toe-walley is in fact a toe loop (why they were merged in the first place).

My problem is I totally don't understand how or why a skater would take off from an inside edge. I can imagine the change to the landing foot could use an inside edge but I can't understand how (or why) that could be maintained until take off (since all the physics of reaching back with the free leg would pull the skater over to the outside edge. In other words, it seems like trying to skate in a clockwise circle on a RFI edge, which is either impossible or awful technique.

Where am I going wrong?

Can someone point to a video of an unambiguous back inside take off?

Mathman · Aug 21, 2008

Here is one. On the first jump in the sequence, a single Walley, I think she did get a clear inside edge take-off. The second, a single toe Walley, I'm not so sure. It looks kind of on the flat to me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVBRPFthqBE

A double toe Walley (much less a triple)? I think that's impossible (?) Like you say, the laws of physics and all that.

(But then again, I don't see how anyone can do a Lutz jump.)

I once saw (on TV) Brian Orser do a supposed double toe Walley as part of a combination in a pro routine, and the commentators (I think it was Peggy Fleming and Dick Button) argued about what jump it really was.

Joesitz (RIP) · Aug 21, 2008

In the early 90s, when a big football star was being interviewed at the end of the season, he was asked what will he be doing during the Summer. He replied, I'll be working on my Double Toe Wally. That got a :laugh:

all around.

The Wally and especially the Toe Wally were very popular jumps at one time.

Here' my comparison with the Toe Lutz.

A Lutz toes off from a back outside edge and counter rotates in the air and lands on a back outside edge of the toe off foot.

A Toe Wally toes off from a back inside edge and counter rotates in the air and lands on a back outside edge not of the toe off foot.

I think that's correct, at least that's the way I do it in my mind.

antmanb · Aug 22, 2008

Mathman said:
Here is one. On the first jump in the sequence, a single Walley, I think she did get a clear inside edge take-off. The second, a single toe Walley, I'm not so sure. It looks kind of on the flat to me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVBRPFthqBE

Both jumps in the clip above are walley not toe walleys.

Ant

dorispulaski · Aug 22, 2008

Zayak at 1984 Worlds LP. The commentator is John Mischa Petkevich, one time US champion in men's. At about the 4:40 mark, Elains does a single walley, followed by a triple toe walley double loop. Unfortunately, the quality of the clip does not make it that easy to see the edge. I have seen Canadian coverage of the same event and Otto Jelinek also calls that particular jump a toe walley while calling the other triple toe in her program a triple toe.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYccxk6G_rg&feature=related

Here's someone attempting to show a sequence of walleys with and without toe

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9Jcrh5Xkjw

Someone else attempting the same on rollers

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-PbcxHhcAU

In fact, roller skaters do a lot of toe walleys, which apparently they feel should be described as a "mapze" off an inside edge. This odd amusing clip says it contains:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mS2u6CSa120

I decided to make this video because I can't find much footage these "show" jumps on the web, (especially on roller), and they have always been my favorites.
Jumps (in order of appearance): Mazurka, Falling Leaf, Ballet Jump, Stag Jump, Full Stag(kind of sloppy, sorry), Forward Split, Russian Split, Deathdrop (ok, so it's not really a "jump" ), Toe Walley (mapze off an inside edge), and Bockel (inside axel). Wanted to include Coolege (1 foot axel), and Walley but they were ...uncooperative.
There may be several examples of each jump, so if you're looking for a specific one keep watching. (It will come up eventually).
Sorry, camera is old and broken, (like Firefly). Can't get rid of the date and time.

trains · Aug 22, 2008

The Skate Canada rulebook defines the walley jumps with the following characteristics:

Walley (Pat Low): RBI takeoff edge - toe no - rotation reverse -1 turn - RBO landing edge

Toe Walley : RBI takeoff edge - toe yes - rotation reverse - 1 turn - RBO landing edge

Double Toe Walley: RBI takeoff edge - toe yes - rotation reverse - 2 turns - RBO landing edge

Walleys were more common in the the mid and later 20th century. They are lovely when well done. More skaters should do them today.

Joesitz (RIP) · Aug 22, 2008

trains said:
Walleys were more common in the the mid and later 20th century. They are lovely when well done. More skaters should do them today.

They are really beautiful jumps when done precisely and with the music.

A true Walle from a rbi edge will lean to the left on take off, then as the skater jumps off, he/she will go from the left lean to the straight and finally to the right lean, and with a beautiful flow out landing - quite rhythmicallty beautiful.

In all fairness to its beauty, the Lutz also with its lean to the left, straighten up in the air and lean right for the landing is also rhythmically beautiful. The initial toeoffs is the difference.

They become exceeding tough jumps when Triples are used, but hey, how do you define a Senior Skater?

mskater93 · Aug 22, 2008

No one has ever done a triple Walley (toe Walley, yes). Doubles are exceedingly rare (maybe 1-2 people ever did one internationally).

Walleys are making a comeback as footwork and difficult entry elements.

Joesitz (RIP) · Aug 22, 2008

True ^^^^

But then no one ever did Triples till Jackson started the ball rolling. Another era, perhaps we'll see the Wally with Triple air turns.

btw, weren't double toe walleys quite common not too long ago?

mskater93 · Aug 22, 2008

Walleys don't have a BV so you aren't likely to see multirevs as single Walleys are hard to accomplish on their own, even for skaters with solid double jumps.

vlaurend · Aug 22, 2008

mskater93 said:
Walleys don't have a BV so you aren't likely to see multirevs as single Walleys are hard to accomplish on their own, even for skaters with solid double jumps.

So true. Due to the counter-rotation and lack of toe assist, walleys are so much more difficult than lutzes, which is one reason you never even see a double (the other being that the walley has no base value, as mskater pointed out). When I saw Stefan Lindemann do a huge double walley in an exhibition routine a few years ago, I was floored! It was just incredible.

I don't know if I've ever seen a multi-revolutional toe walley, but I wonder if some of the men who lip on their flips might also toe walley on their toeloops?

mskater93 · Aug 22, 2008

Zayak had a great 3TW. If you find the youtube video of her US Championship, you can see it.

Most of the men who Lip the Flip push hard over to an outside edge with the outside three turn, step entry to their toe loops.

Joesitz (RIP) · Aug 22, 2008

Doris, those examples were not very good to see the requisite back inside edge before take off. i remember skaters exaggerating the back inside take off so judges would not confuse it with a loop jump. In fact, telegraphing the back inside edge was the way to go.

Ladskater · Aug 23, 2008

Here is a very simple explanation of the Walley jump:

http://figureskating.about.com/od/glossaryletterw/g/Walley.htm

The Walley is one of my favorite jumps.

Here is a video of Kurt Browning who is a master of the Walley jump:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FgNbG0MiE84

rmaap1 · Aug 31, 2008

Mafke said:
Can someone point to a video of an unambiguous back inside take off?

Here is another site with a clear video.
http://www.sk8stuff.com/f_recog/recog_j_walley.htm
I always find this site helpful when I am trying to understand the jumps.

Another page on that site
http://www.sk8stuff.com/f_recog/recog_jumps_index.htm
has a good table at the very bottom of the page.

Joesitz (RIP) · Sep 1, 2008

Ladskater said:
Here is a very simple explanation of the Walley jump:

http://figureskating.about.com/od/glossaryletterw/g/Walley.htm

The Walley is one of my favorite jumps.

Here is a video of Kurt Browning who is a master of the Walley jump:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FgNbG0MiE84

T
Thanks LadSkater for the clip. I wasn't around during that period of time.

Browning v. Curry in a competion would be hard pressed to pick a winner. Kurt's opening spiral was super. The 'tricks' were a part of the overall dance, and dancing to a Tarantela on skates can not be the easiest music to use. I didn't really notice any walleys. At about a 5th of the tape, they looked like loop jumps.

btw, has anyone seen a Tarantella by dance couples?

dorispulaski · Sep 1, 2008

Believe it or not, Faiella & Scali's OD last year was a pizzica, which is a variety of tarantella.

Mafke · Sep 2, 2008

dorispulaski said:
Believe it or not, Faiella & Scali's OD last year was a pizzica, which is a variety of tarantella.

That was easily my favorite OD last year (as in "I enjoyed it the most" as opposed to "had the best construction" or "was skated the best")

Mafke · Sep 2, 2008

dorispulaski said:
At about the 4:40 mark, Elaine (Zayak: mafke) does a single walley, followed by a triple toe walley double loop. Unfortunately, the quality of the clip does not make it that easy to see the edge. ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYccxk6G_rg&feature=related

Many thanks for that link. Now, after watching it approximately 12,348,729 times*, I can say the following:

1. the walley does take off from an inside edge (shallow, but inside)

2. the "triple toe walley" seems, in fact, to be a plain old triple toe loop preceded by a LFO three and a change of foot to a RBO edge (as opposed to a RFI three approach for a 'typical' toe loop from a counterclockwise skater). This is the same approach Kwan had as the first jump in her 3t3t combo.
Crucially, even if she goes from the LBI edge to a RBI edge the direction of rotation is clearly counter-clockwise through the entire sequence which means even if she's momentarily on a RBI edge, she shouldn't be unless she takes off from a standstill (which she doesn't ) or changes the direction of rotation (which she doesn't, how can you skate clockwise on a RBI edge while swinging your free leg around for the toe pick to jump counterclockwise?).

So, barring further evidence the "triple toe walley" seems (as I've always understood) to be a modified entrance for a triple toe loop rather than a true toe walley (for which a triple version is exceedingly unlikely).

*12,348,729 might be an exaggerated figure .... but only a slight one

Joesitz (RIP) · Sep 2, 2008

Mafke said:
dorispulaski said:

So, barring further evidence the "triple toe walley" seems (as I've always understood) to be a modified entrance for a triple toe loop rather than a true toe walley (for which a triple version is exceedingly unlikely).

*12,348,729 might be an exaggerated figure .... but only a slight one

Click to expand...

The toe walley came late in the figure skating originals. There was only the Walley which one could nowadays say it was a wrong edge loop jump take off. However, the definition of a Walley is to take off on a back inside edge so no wrong edge loop jump is involved.

The Toe Walley, as like other 'toe off' jumps', is to assist the skater in executing a walley. It's basically doing a toe loop but from a back inside edge. More difficult than a toe loop but much less difficult than a genuine walley. There is a big difficerence in doing a Walley and a Toe Walley.

When one thinks of the Lutz which is a 'toe-off' jump, it is much easier than if a skater would be doing the jump without a toe-off. still, a difficult jump with or without a toe-off.

Triple Toe Walley

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