Bebe Liang out of Golden West

[swannanoa54]

Originally posted by Dave Amorde
Maxell, my head isn't up my "nether-regions". I don't know where yours is. I doubt you have any clue what Bebe's training regimen is, what the original cause of her injury was, or anything else about this delightful girl's situation. To use the word "stupid" in any context regarding Bebe Liang is insulting, plain and simple. To say that it is a result of "3-3's and quads" is purely irresponsible conjecture on your part.

Maxell stated:
"Someone on the SkateFans list said she's withdrawn due to a "minor hip injury". Exactly how "minor" is anyone's guess. And if she wants to go to Nationals she HAS to skate in the GP, so I hope her injury does heal fully before she has to endure that grind.

Once again, another talented skater out because of the demand for more 3/3 and quad jumps. Stupid, stupid, stupid!"

Ok, let me see if I can explain this, dave, so that you GET it. Maxell quoted "minor hip injury" in relation to Bebe. And also stated "I hope her injury does heal fully". Ok, that's reasonable.

However, the last statement doesn't refer to Bebe as stupid unless you're reading something I don't see. Goodness, it applies to ALL our talented skaters. Here is another one that is out whether it's a local competition or not, due to a MINOR hip injury practicing 3/3s. THAT is stupid, stupid, stupid, to have these young athletes feel it is absolutely necessary to have these jumps before their bodies even reach puberty!

Now, do YOU know the EXACT cause of her injury, dave amorde? Were YOU there? Or are you just reporting what you've read? Because it would seem to me that you are taking offense at something maxell didn't even say.

As for me, I think it is ludicrous to have these young ladies doing this. Not only the hip can be injured but the back as well. Look at Sasha. She missed an entire season with a back injury. Sure, it's a sport. Everyone gets hurt. But in EVERY sport there is an attempt to try and minimize injury if at all possible. Is there an answer? Sure, quit trying to turn figure skating into a jump fest. I've been watching tennis and when I saw Wimbledon and Venus played with that pulled stomach muscle, I thought "How wrong!"

This week Tracy Austin said Venus told her she almost pulled out but she wanted to do it for the fans. When an athlete does that, I wonder about their goals in the sport. I'm glad both sisters decided not to play the Open this year. They both have injuries. However here's Lindsay Davenport playing with a bad foot.

I suppose it's just the risks you have to take if you want to be the best. And maybe the injuries are the result of bad technique. I just know that i wish Bebe well and a quick recovery.

[Dave Amorde]

What I know is what Bebe told me. Nothing more, nothing less.

[Mathman]

Dave Amorde, please don't get mad and go away. You have an insider's view of a lot of things that are going on in the sport, especially in California, and your posts are always interesting. (You are lucky to know Bebe Liang and other famous skaters personally -- I'm jealous.)

In Dave's defense, Realistic and Maxell, in the sentence:

"Once again, another talented skater out because of the demand for more 3/3 and quad jumps."

grammatically speaking the subject of the sentence is "another talented skater" -- i.e., Beatrisa. So you can understand why Dave reacted as he did.

On the other hand, this general topic, skating injuries due to overtraining at too young an age, is one that is of deep concern to everyone involved in the sport. We have had several threads here at Golden Skate about what can be done to prevent injuries that not only cut skaters' careers short, but also give them problems for the rest of their lives.

Mathman

PS. About comparing Bebe to Sasha, I think what Joe was saying is that Bebe's presentation style, like Sasha's, falls into the "bravura" rather than the "lyrical" category. That is an interesting claim. I don't know whether I agree or not. I look forward to seeing Bebe in her Grand Prix events; I'll be looking for this in her performances.

[Joesitz]

Thanks for coming to my rescue, Mathman. Most posters know I classify style in figure skating. It's a ballet habit I developed over the years. The two big classifications I see are Lyrical and Bravura. The latter is brilliant technique with performance aimed at the audience (judges?). The former is supple technique with performance musically inspired. There is nothing wrong with either of these major styles!!!

There are subdivisions based on what the skater is also trying to bring across within the two major classifications. These are coquette and elegant. And there are others depending on the music, certainly dramatic plays a big role.

For all you confused posters of my saying that Bebe is a Sasha wannabe, is really a compliment to Sasha that some younger skater, who imo, would want to look up to. That is indeed, a big compliment to Sasha. Bebe fans should be upset if anyone.

Now, I am sure everyone will be looking at Bebe and scrutinzing her style. Good. I think I am right.

(As to those other posters, please ease off on the personal name-calling - not nice and not GS).

Joe

[chuckm]

Tara isn’t the only skater who incurred severe injury by doing too much, too soon. Naomi Nari Nam had the same injury as Tara, and had the same surgery by the same surgeon. Deanna Stellato’s career was also cut short by injury.

Both Tara and NNN were tiny, small-framed girls when they injured themselves. Very young, slightly built skaters do not have the strength to propel their bodies high enough into the air to complete triples and 3/3s in the normal way, so they compensate by super-fast rotation in the air. This subjects the body to a high degree of torsion, and it is that torsion that causes damage to the hip flexors. BeBe is tiny, although her body is not quite as slight as Tara’s or NNN’s. I just hope she is not having the same problem.

Tiny Japanese 12-, 13- and 14-year-olds who are concentrating all their efforts on 3As and quads have not only followed in Tara’s footsteps, but have upped the ante. Following their example, young skaters everywhere are pushing themselves to stay competitive. How many of these skaters will still be around at the age of 18?.

[hockeyfan228]

Originally posted by Joesitz

For all you confused posters of my saying that Bebe is a Sasha wannabe, is really a compliment to Sasha that some younger skater, who imo, would want to look up to. That is indeed, a big compliment to Sasha.

It is a great, if somewhat mischievous, compliment to Cohen: for almost a decade, the role model for US skaters has been Kwan, the gentle Lyric. That is limiting stylistically (as opposed to technically) to skaters who don't have the same body type, temperament, and/or musical and dramatic sense.

Cohen has made a mark for herself, achieved both through style and technique (such as her spiral and spin positions). Now it's fine for young skaters to point to an alternative style and to aspire to that.

[Joesitz]

hockeyfan - Exactly!

Injuries of Tara, Deanna, NNN are the ones we know of. There was a thread which I was unable to drag over to GS to show that there are young girls (moreso than boys) facing surgery due to skating stress on the hips every year who have not yet entered a competition.

A very sad state of affairs going on here.

Joe

[maxell1313]

Originally posted by Mathman

In Dave's defense, Realistic and Maxell, in the sentence:

"Once again, another talented skater out because of the demand for more 3/3 and quad jumps."

grammatically speaking the subject of the sentence is "another talented skater" -- i.e., Beatrisa. So you can understand why Dave reacted as he did.

With all due respect, Mathman, no, I don't understand. I am extremely tired of young, up-and-coming skaters getting sidelined with injuries that could easily be avoided if the demand for jumps, jumps, and more jumps was given the heave-ho. Nor do I appreciate getting my head bitten off for making an observation. Never once did I say anything disrespectful towards Bebe, because I do like her as a skater and think she has great promise. I also never stated that she was dumping her whole season, just that she'd withdrawn from Golden West. Where people want to take the discussion after that isn't in my control so I'm not taking the blame for this one, thanks.

[Dave Amorde]

I think the recent increase in ladies trying 3A's is an acknowledgement that the increased risks inherent in the 3/3 combos makes them less attractive. It would be interesting to hear from a medical practitioner if there is a clinical reason why girls seem to be more prone to this type of injury than boys. As someone who has suffered through three abdominal hernia surgeries, I know that the differences between boys and girls can sometimes be painful.

[Mathman]

Just trying to make peace, Maxell. No offense intended.

Joe, as I've said before, I like your classification of balletic styles as applied to figure skating. It gives me something to watch for. But it's not always obvious how to classify my favorites. Not to mention, performers can skate in different styles on different ocassions.

Michelle is certainly the prototypical "lyrical" skater, but in Aranjuez we saw a bigger, bolder, "look what I can do" attitude from her. I liked that, too.

As for deciding between "elegant" and "coquette," to me, Michelle (not to mention Sasha and Bebe!) is really too young to be either of these. "Elegant" is the Protopopovs:

http://www.shanfan.com/nongymn/skati...rotopopovs.jpg

"Coquette" is Katarina Witt:

http://www.gg.caltech.edu/~jeff/imag...rina_witt6.gif

Mathman

[rtureck]

Joesitz
For all you confused posters of my saying that Bebe is a Sasha wannabe, is really a compliment to Sasha that some younger skater, who imo, would want to look up to. That is indeed, a big compliment to Sasha. Bebe fans should be upset if anyone.

I know you have been identifying Bebe's style as bravura, Cohen like. I haven't seen Bebe enough to conclude that she has a bravura style. I am not even sure Cohen has a bravura style, in your face kind of style yes. JMHO bravura means more than just presentation on the loud side. But in terms of competition style, Bebe and Cohen are very different. Bebe has the ability to rise to the occasion and then some. At junior worlds she competed through pain/ injury, and was able to land some jumps in the actual competition that she was not able to land due to injury. I thnk Jenny Kirk has the same competition style too, at nationals, she had technique problem and was falling all over the place in practice, but raised her performamce to the occasion in competition and landed those jumps that she was missing in practice, and she had to skate Kwan. Kirk, and Bebe have mental toughness

hockeyfan
for almost a decade, the role model for US skaters has been Kwan, the gentle Lyric

Kwan to me is not entirely gentle lyric, she is bel canto with soul, that does not mean she is not lyric or she is not bravura. I think she can be both, but more importantly she has soul I still haven't decided what is Bebe's style, but as far as being open about who is her role model, I don't believe she has identified Cohen as her role model.

Interestingly Kostner named Kwan and Cohen as her favorite skaters.

PS:

I know Joe extracts the skating style from ballet, but skating is not exactly ballet. Skating is not opera either, and here I am borrowing the opera term bel canto. But if I may borrow the opera term, bel canto - beautiful singing is more than just lyric, it requires tremendous brilliant technique to give that flow from one element to the next. The question of soul - to me a performer / skater either has soul or not.

PPS Back to Bebe, I wish her the best.

[skatepixie]

Originally posted by Joesitz
Thanks for coming to my rescue, Mathman. Most posters know I classify style in figure skating. It's a ballet habit I developed over the years. The two big classifications I see are Lyrical and Bravura. The latter is brilliant technique with performance aimed at the audience (judges?). The former is supple technique with performance musically inspired. There is nothing wrong with either of these major styles!!!

I think Sasha is a combo of the two.

[Joesitz]

rturek - I am not comparing Sasha and Bebe. I am classifying both as bravura skaters. Bravura skaters are not all the same. I classify Hammil as Bravura Elegant; I classify Witt as a Bravura Coquette. In the case of Bebe I have not been able to see another qualifying adjective yet, but the major style is bravura, for me. In the case of Sasha I would say Bravura Classic.

Kwan, of course, is the embodiment of Lyric Classic, however, she has shown she is capable of Lyric Dramatic (Salome) and has now shown us Bravura Classic-Spanish (Aranjuez). giving me a title of Prima Skater for her (but that's getting too ballet minded.)

I credit Kwans talent, of course, but also her age and experience. It takes time for an artist to develop something special. That is one reason, I rarely get worked up over young skaters with triple combos.

To round off the discussion on style, I would suggest that Viktoria Volchkova is Lyric Elegant.

Unfortunately, in my opinion, there are many skaters for which I have not seen any style - good jumps though and skating is a sport as well as an aratistic endeavour.

Joe

[peachstatesk8er]

Originally posted by maxell1313
I am extremely tired of young, up-and-coming skaters getting sidelined with injuries that could easily be avoided if the demand for jumps, jumps, and more jumps was given the heave-ho.

Well it isn't going to happen any time soon, I'm afraid. Not when the CoP supposedly rewards a less-than-perfect quad more than a well-done triple. Everyone wants to see more, more, more. As long as there is a want and drive to push the sport forward and try more, there will be a greater risk of injury. I hope the trend will begin to lean towards training smarter, not harder.

[peachstatesk8er]

Originally posted by Dave Amorde
I think the recent increase in ladies trying 3A's is an acknowledgement that the increased risks inherent in the 3/3 combos makes them less attractive. It would be interesting to hear from a medical practitioner if there is a clinical reason why girls seem to be more prone to this type of injury than boys. As someone who has suffered through three abdominal hernia surgeries, I know that the differences between boys and girls can sometimes be painful.

Dave, an ortho told me a long time ago that it's the angle of the hip joint down to the knee that causes more stress for the girls. Even girls that have a boy-like build still have a different angle than a boy. The greater the angle, the greater the risk of joint injuries of the hip and knee.