Is the Spiral Overrated? | Golden Skate

Is the Spiral Overrated?

Joined
Jul 11, 2003
While there are spirals on the edges, there are also spirals on the flat of the blade. The flat is the easiest way to hold your balance, yet it can be used for choreographic measues. correct?

The scoring of a spiral will show, among other things, the balance of a skater. At the Senior Level, that should not be a problem for a skater. Yes?

The skating foot: will show the edge(s) and how far the lean a skater will venture.

The Free foot: will show how high it will be placed above the head of a skater. The knee and the toe of the free foot should be pointed outward, unless the skater is using it as a characteristic of the music.

The various changes of eges to show a combo of two spirals without bobbles.

The various catch foots to the free foot. Are they attractive or just difficult?

Any other nitpicks of the spiral, please let me know.

My questions are: Are Spirals difficult at the Senior Level? How much penalties for faults within the prescribed methods of doing a spiral? Are they just for female skaters? Should they be relegated to Moves-in-the-Field?
 

mskater93

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 22, 2005
Spirals on the flat do not count towards the spiral sequence but only the first 3 positions count in the spiral sequence. The rules for COE have been further clarified for 2008-09 that the actual flat ride of the COE can only encompass 1 meter or less (!!!) or else the feature is negated. The higher the free leg, the harder it is to balance. The shorter the change of edge, the harder it is to hold both spirals without skating foot wobble. The faster the skater is, the harder it is to keep the COE 1 meter or less if a skater chooses to use that feature. By having to have at least one position unassisted in a spiral, if the skater chooses to catch first then release after their COE, the harder it is because the leg can't drop below the hip once it's released. There is A LOT more to a spiral than you think as a non skater.

Personally, I hate doing spiral and would prefer to have a MIF sequence allowed in it's place with the choices being spread eagles, spirals, bauers, and hydroblades that is judged based on specific criteria, but that's because I can't do a L4 spiral and currently have had my footwork called L2 at best in its place.
 

Tinymavy15

Sinnerman for the win
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 28, 2006
Spirals are not at all difficult to do for any good competitive skater at juvenile and above. You would never know that by watching them though.
Spirals are not difficult to perform as jumps are, but to be able to achieve strong and aesthetically pleasing positions 99% of skater have to work hard for many years to get very good flexibility in the entire body. Doing the splits just wont do it. Getting that leg up over the head is MUCH harder when you are wearing 5 pound boots and balancing on a 1/4 inch blade versus in sneakers at the ballet bare.

Flexibility not only takes a long to to achieve, but also stretching must be constantly kept up or years of work will vanish. The skater must also achieve a balance to where they to not overly disrupt and stretch out the leg, butt and back muscles that are required for thier jumps... interrupting muscle memory etc.
 

passion

On the Ice
Joined
Sep 17, 2005
Spirals are not at all difficult to do for any good competitive skater at juvenile and above. You would never know that by watching them though.
Spirals are not difficult to perform as jumps are, but to be able to achieve strong and aesthetically pleasing positions 99% of skater have to work hard for many years to get very good flexibility in the entire body. Doing the splits just wont do it. Getting that leg up over the head is MUCH harder when you are wearing 5 pound boots and balancing on a 1/4 inch blade versus in sneakers at the ballet bare.

Flexibility not only takes a long to to achieve, but also stretching must be constantly kept up or years of work will vanish. The skater must also achieve a balance to where they to not overly disrupt and stretch out the leg, butt and back muscles that are required for thier jumps... interrupting muscle memory etc.

In terms of actually getting the leg high, I found that the strength to get the leg high is much more difficult than the actual flexibility. (As you said, "doing the splits just wont do it").
 

NatachaHatawa

Final Flight
Joined
Feb 4, 2008
Thanks for these explanations guys! :agree:
Most of us non-skaters haven't got a clue about spiral difficulties, so it's nice to have it explained.:)
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
Which is why I wish juvenile boys were doing them

Spirals are not at all difficult to do for any good competitive skater at juvenile and above. You would never know that by watching them though.
Spirals are not difficult to perform as jumps are, but to be able to achieve strong and aesthetically pleasing positions 99% of skater have to work hard for many years to get very good flexibility in the entire body. Doing the splits just wont do it. Getting that leg up over the head is MUCH harder when you are wearing 5 pound boots and balancing on a 1/4 inch blade versus in sneakers at the ballet bare.

Flexibility not only takes a long to to achieve, but also stretching must be constantly kept up or years of work will vanish. The skater must also achieve a balance to where they to not overly disrupt and stretch out the leg, butt and back muscles that are required for thier jumps... interrupting muscle memory etc.

In pairs, there is a required spiral sequence ...and what usually spoils the element is the relatively poor performance of the gentleman in the pair. Many can't even get the leg higher than the waist, and therefore the element should not even count as a result. If boys had a MTIF requirement for a spiral, it would improve the look of pair's performances.

And there are some guys who have had great spirals of various sorts in the past--they just didn't get anything but transition credit for them. I'm thinking Rudy Galindo, Shawn Sawyer, and Toller Cranston.

And amongst the youngsters, Novice Joshua Farris has a great Charlotte spiral! He won novices at Liberty.
 

SeaniBu

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 19, 2006
In pairs, there is a required spiral sequence ...and what usually spoils the element is the relatively poor performance of the gentleman in the pair. Many can't even get the leg higher than the waist, and therefore the element should not even count as a result. If boys had a MTIF requirement for a spiral, it would improve the look of pair's performances.

I agree, particularly the factor of the "boys" getting this experience early. It always seems to fall short when seeing new men in this portion of the routine.

Is it over rated or over scored? Same thing I 'spose depending on who is doing the "rating.";)

Happy Birthday Nicole B - speaking of good spirals (well .. really good sprails that is:agree:)
 

Tinymavy15

Sinnerman for the win
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 28, 2006
It is bad how so many of the male skaters just stop doing spirals after they pass senior moves. Jeff Buttle and Emanuel Sandu both had very nice, classic spiral positions, showing that it can be done.

I agree that the spiral sequence should just be removed from pair skating if the man cannot do a halfway decent position.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
It can be and should be a beautiful move in figure skating. The ballet arabasque does not have the free leg in one position only, but can be at any level depending on the mood of the music. It definitely it making a statement whereas in figure skating the spiral is just saying, 'look how high my free leg is'.

Personally, I would like to see spirals, footwork, moves in field, etc., scattered about in a routine. They would make figure skating more like dancing.

Doris is correct about the boys, spirals and Pairs. ugh. If they work on their camel spins, they should be improving their spirals.

Bottom Line for me: Spirals are not big tricks.
 

mskater93

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 22, 2005
There's a huge difference between spirals and camel spins in the ability to keep the leg in a position and it's related to the fact one goes straight and one uses centripetal force. Once you can hook your camel entry consistently, it's pretty easy to keep your leg in the correct position as the rotational force keeps it there.

Also, Joe, if you'd already come to the conclusion that spirals are "easy", why post a thread?

I personally do not find spirals in a position much higher than the hip easy to complete, but I can do a change of edge spread eagle and a Bauer that covers the length of the ice. I struggle with flexibility and strength in that direction. It TOTALLY depends on the skater what he/she finds to be easy.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Well, I don't think that spirals are over scored in the CoP. Base value for a spiral ranges from 1.8 points to 3.4. In contrast, a change of edge layback spin goes from 2.0 to 3.3. This is much less than any triple jump.

Whether they are overrated by the spectators, who go oh and aw when they see a particularly nice one -- I guess that's an eye of the beholder sort of thing.

I like them because, when you do a spiral -- in contrast to a jump -- you are actually skating. Gliding along on an edge. That's pretty, to me. Rotating in the air? That's OK, too.

I always liked Michelle Kwan's spiral, because she timed it dramatically to the music and made you think you were seeing something out-of-this-world. That's the job of any entertainer, IMHO.
 
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AwesomeIce

Match Penalty
Joined
Mar 13, 2008
The only thing I find "overrated" about spirals Sasha Cohen. I hate the way the way Dick Button criticizes anyone who doesn't have the positions of Cohen, with no regard to the speed or depth of edge.
 

Ladskater

~ Figure Skating Is My Passion ~
Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 28, 2003
Some have mentioned that the spiral is not very difficult however as with everything in figure skating the difficulty lies in how well executed the move is done by the skater.

The spiral is one of the first basic moves a skater learns. It takes balance, poise and good edge control to execute a quality spiral. Of course, as mentioned flexibility does come in to play. Shawn Sawyers' flexibility is really shown off in a spiral.

No, I don't think the spiral is over rated. It's a good measuring tool for the judges to see a skaters' edge control, flexibility and strength. A lot goes on with this simple move!! I think with the exception of a few skaters the spiral is often rushed and almost makes skaters look awkward. I think they need to take the time to do a spiral properly and make it look graceful. They may as well leave the move out if they don't want to take the time.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
There's a huge difference between spirals and camel spins in the ability to keep the leg in a position and it's related to the fact one goes straight and one uses centripetal force. Once you can hook your camel entry consistently, it's pretty easy to keep your leg in the correct position as the rotational force keeps it there.

Also, Joe, if you'd already come to the conclusion that spirals are "easy", why post a thread?

I personally do not find spirals in a position much higher than the hip easy to complete, but I can do a change of edge spread eagle and a Bauer that covers the length of the ice. I struggle with flexibility and strength in that direction. It TOTALLY depends on the skater what he/she finds to be easy.
I posted a thread about spirals looking for support that Spirals at the Senior Level are no big deal. Since as LadSkater has said, it is one of the first basic moves one learns (think juveniles) and as MM said it doesn't register that much on the scale of scores. By the senior level a female skater without a decent spiral is in trouble with the basics, imo.

As I said, it is a beautiful move and should be seen as a mitf as is the Ina Bauer.
By using it with the music throughout would improve the choreograpy of the routine, imo.

As to the high extension, it is a matter of stretching the leg higher and higher. Juveniles have an advantage if they continue stretching. Acrobatic Dancers also have an edge. It's a question of practice which leads to ability.
 

AwesomeIce

Match Penalty
Joined
Mar 13, 2008
I think with the exception of a few skaters the spiral is often rushed and almost makes skaters look awkward. I think they need to take the time to do a spiral properly and make it look graceful. They may as well leave the move out if they don't want to take the time.

I think part of the problem with that is that a skater has a limited amount of time in which to complete x-number of elements. And even within the spiral sequence, there are so many requirements to get the sequence to a high level. There really isn't time to "take the time to do a spiral properly and make it look graceful." You can't just do what goes with the music, because it might not meet the level 3 or 4 requirements. And "taking time" takes time away from the other required elements. So even though a phrase of music might suggest holding one spiral position for 5 or 6 seconds, a skater cuts it down to the minimum requirement of 3 seconds to get it over with and move on to the next move.
 

mskater93

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 22, 2005
As to the high extension, it is a matter of stretching the leg higher and higher. Juveniles have an advantage if they continue stretching. Acrobatic Dancers also have an edge. It's a question of practice which leads to ability.

As I said, extension is not necessarily about practice. I stretch and practice a lot and yet extension much above the hip level is not going to happen as I am not built to be flexible in that direction. Yes, I am an adult which could have something to do with inelasticity in that direction, but I also skate with a kid who is at the Juvenile level (she's 12) who doesn't have flexibility in that direction either and has been dancing ballet for as many years as she has been skating (6 or 7 at least) along with stretching and off ice conditioning. She's already passed her Novice MIF and the spiral move on that test was her lowest scored element due to her not-so-great extension. Her brother has fantastic spirals (could get a L4 without much trouble) and he's 4 years older than she is and has great elasticity in that direction.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
^^^
There is quite a bit of truth in that sports ability is generic. Certainly some people are born with a spring in their legs, hence the high jumps. But, I believe practice will make the skater the best he/she can be.
 

Tinymavy15

Sinnerman for the win
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 28, 2006
^^^
There is quite a bit of truth in that sports ability is generic. Certainly some people are born with a spring in their legs, hence the high jumps. But, I believe practice will make the skater the best he/she can be.

So true. Look at Michelle. As a young skater her spirals were decent. Nothing more. A few years of hard work and she had arguably the best positions around (until sasha came up from juniors).
 
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