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Nebelhorn Results

Lee

Rinkside
Joined
Jul 27, 2003
Not sure why everyone is in an all-fired snort to know which judge gives which score.

Gymnastics gives one public score and we (the fans) don't see any individual judge's scores.

It just blows my mind how, on the basis of just a handful of corrupt officials, people believe ALL judges are corrupt.

Like Norlite, I *do* have faith in the judges. I've gotten to know many of them during the past 14 years my daughter has skated, and I am sooo impressed with the dedication and love of the sport they demonstrate.

I have the same respect for judges as I do for kindergarten teachers -- an extremely tough job that you couldn't pay me enough to do. Oh yeah, I forgot -- judges *don't* get paid anyways! Oh, well...
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
Lee - No one believes ALL judges are corrupt. That's what you said - no one else.

Aside from that you do indeed have the right to believe in the full trust of - dare I say, ALL judges. But it is ok for others (like me) to think there are SOME judges I would be very skeptical about. The bottom line is that figure skating and gymnastics are sports based on subjective judging. I know a gymnast judge who said it is subjective but with the constant judging meetings in gymnastics and penalizing guilty judges, the subjectivity is much less than before. Still it will always exist but not as a conspiracy a la SLC.

Like baseball, some fans like to read about it the next day even though they already know the outcome. In figure skating I like to know more about the judges individually and why all their scores don't match (or certain judges do match). With the new system, I can't.:cry:

Joe
 

BrokenAnkle

Rinkside
Joined
Aug 16, 2003
Lee said:


It just blows my mind how, on the basis of just a handful of corrupt officials, people believe ALL judges are corrupt.

Like Norlite, I *do* have faith in the judges. I've gotten to know many of them during the past 14 years my daughter has skated, and I am sooo impressed with the dedication and love of the sport they demonstrate.


I know you are trying to defend the honest (hopefully the majority) of judges here, but I think you are going about it the wrong way. You yourself acknowledge the existance of a handful of corrupt officials. Do you feel the ISU dealt with the corrupt ones appropriately? Do you feel it is all right for judges like Balkov to be on these panels alongside those judges who, as you say, are indeed are dedicated and motivated by love of the sport? I imagine they are insulted by the presence of someone like him.

IMHO, the fans who want to see the names of the judges and their marks (or whatever all the date is now called) are for the most part, fans who have seen inaction on the part of the ISU in rooting out the corrupt judges and feel they are at the point where they need to decide for themselves. The aura of suspicion has been created adn even fostered by the ISU itself and it is I think, a little naive at this point to feel confident in every single judge. The whole anonymous judging idea is based on not on the idea that messing with the marks is wrong and the judges would never do it , but that it's going to happen so let's just make it harder and less efficient. That is far more insulting to the honest judges than a few fans who would like to have names attached to marks.

JMHO,

BA
 

Ptichka

Forum translator
Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 28, 2003
Norlite said:
Speaking of corrupt judges ;)........here's everyone's favourite, Yuri Balkov, judging with his fancy touch screen at Nebelhorn.

And, from Russia, Alla Shehovtseva -- she just happens to be the wife of Valentin Piseev, the president of the Russian Federation of Figure Skating! Can you spell "c-o-n-f-l-i-c-t- -o-f- -i-n-t-e-r-e-s-t"?

BTW, I too believe most judges are not corrupt. Furthermore, I do not believe that most judges from the former USSR are corrupt. Therefore, it is rather upsettingto see two judges represented at the first try of the CoP system who are almost certainly biased.
 

Norlite

On the Ice
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Ptichka said:
And, from Russia, Alla Shehovtseva -- she just happens to be the wife of Valentin Piseev, the president of the Russian Federation of Figure Skating! Can you spell "c-o-n-f-l-i-c-t- -o-f- -i-n-t-e-r-e-s-t"?

I actually don't see that as a conflict of interest at all. I would only see a conflict if a skater was related to a judge.
Most judges are very involved with their federations. They are not strangers off the street, they are qualified volunteers within their NGB, and sit on many commitees within that federation.
 

RealtorGal

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 27, 2003
Can anyone give me a satisfactory explanation as to why Yuri Balkov is still a judge? He gets caught with his hands in the cookie jar--CHEATING with another judge, they are trying to show how they're cleaning up the judging scene--yet this piece of turd is still judging. How can we ever believe that true and honest attempts to clean up the judging are in effect when the likes of him are still around? All credibility is lost whenever I see his smarmy face (or, in this case, the back of his head).:confused: :rolleye: :p
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
Norlite said:
I actually don't see that as a conflict of interest at all. I would only see a conflict if a skater was related to a judge.
Most judges are very involved with their federations. They are not strangers off the street, they are qualified volunteers within their NGB, and sit on many commitees within that federation.


But some want to maintain their secrecy at all costs. This will keep them safe from any acusations which may arise. Balkov will enjoy this new protection.

Joe
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Norlite said:
I actually don't see that as a conflict of interest at all. I would only see a conflict if a skater was related to a judge.
Most judges are very involved with their federations. They are not strangers off the street, they are qualified volunteers within their NGB, and sit on many commitees within that federation.
I think this is a big problem. The way the system operates, all of the judges are beholden to their national federations for their assignments. The national federations, in turn, have as their primary objective the promotion of the fortunes of skaters from their own countries -- that's what national means. So the judges are automatically under pressure to see the contests that they are judging in terms of "our skaters" and "their skaters."

Hence we get a situation like Salt Lake City, where without revealing any details, the French judge said that she felt "pressure" from the head of the French figure skating association to act in a way that gave the best advatage to the French team.

We will never be without favoritism, whether based of nationality or whatever. But the idea being pushed by the World Skating Federation and others, that judges should be hired (and paid!) by the ISU based on objective criteria separate from the favor of the natonal federations, is a good one, IMHO.

Mathman
 

Norlite

On the Ice
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Mathman said:
But the idea being pushed by the World Skating Federation and others, that judges should be hired (and paid!) by the ISU based on objective criteria separate from the favor of the natonal federations, is a good one, IMHO.

Then you must be particularly pleased with the new Technical officials (Controller, Speciallist, Ass't Specialist) that is now in use with the CoP, Mathman. These positions are paid employees of the ISU. There is a suspicion among some fans that this is Cinquanta's way of getting around federations objections to having judges paid employees of the ISU,( which by the way, is not a WSF idea, Speedy has been trying to implement this for a while now. ) The most ardent anti-ISU fans are all up in arms that now the ISU *has* paid employees on the judging panel, with all the control issues that that implies. Most of these anti-ISU fans believe having the judges belonging to the federations is preferable to having them belong to Speedy.

It's a tough issue, one that I haven't really made up my own mind about.
 
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icestar

Rinkside
Joined
Aug 15, 2003
Points value

I was just looking at the protocol, and as a former skater there is no way a 3lutz+3toe should get more points than a 3axel. The 3axel is way harder.
Nicholas's 3f+3t got 10.1 and Scott's 4s+2t got a 9.8 as base marks? I think that is very wrong.
Tell me i'm reading this wrong.
 

Ptichka

Forum translator
Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 28, 2003
Norlite, you do have some good points. However, I think it is prefereable to have them being Speedy's employees. This is how I look at it: this way, you only have one mess to clear up (ISU). As it is now, you have to trust that EVERY ONE of the federations is not corrupt.
 

Norlite

On the Ice
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Well, like I said, I haven't made up my own mind. But I will say this. Whether or not I feel that judges are better off with their feds as volunteers or with the ISU as employees, has nothing to do with corruption as it has to do with what is in the best interest of the judges.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
FanForLady, I think maybe they want to evaluate how it worked, and maybe fine tune it, before committing themselves to making such a big change at the most important competition of the year.

MM
 
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Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Norlite, you are so right about being between the devil and the deep blue sea, in trying to decide which system is more open to corruption, Speedy or the national federations. The fact that this is so -- that the average skating fan says, a curse on both your houses! -- is a huge public relations problem for figure skating as a whole. Is Speedy the puppet of the most powerful blocs of federations, or is he a martinet in his own right calling the tune?

The ideal situation would be for Cinquanta to step down. But I don't think that is going to happen any time soon (or until hell freezes over).

Mathman
 
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hockeyfan228

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Norlite said:
Then you must be particularly pleased with the new Technical officials (Controller, Speciallist, Ass't Specialist) that is now in use with the CoP, Mathman. These positions are paid employees of the ISU.

I, for one, am thrilled by this. To see former skaters like Jan Hoffmann (referee, 2 events), Alexei Urmanov, and Bruno Marcotte (tech specialists) getting paid by the ISU and no longer beholden to their federations makes my heart sing.

There is a suspicion among some fans that this is Cinquanta's way of getting around federations objections to having judges paid employees of the ISU,( which by the way, is not a WSF idea, Speedy has been trying to implement this for a while now. )

Hmm, I wonder why the Federations don't want to give up control of the judges :)
 

Norlite

On the Ice
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
hockeyfan228 said:
I, for one, am thrilled by this. To see former skaters like Jan Hoffmann (referee, 2 events), Alexei Urmanov, and Bruno Marcotte (tech specialists) getting paid by the ISU and no longer beholden to their federations makes my heart sing.

Referee's are not paid officials. Did I miss this in the information?
Jan Hoffmann has been an ISU International level judge for some time now. The Tech officials are to be hired from high level skaters or coaches, not established judges.
 

hockeyfan228

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Norlite said:
Referee's are not paid officials. Did I miss this in the information?
Jan Hoffmann has been an ISU International level judge for some time now. The Tech officials are to be hired from high level skaters or coaches, not established judges.

I read somewhere that the ISU officials would be paid; I'll try to find it.

Jan Hoffmann might be a long-time judge, but he also won an Olympic silver medal in 1980, and World golds in '74 and '80, silvers in '77 and '78, and bronzes in '76 and '79. I think that qualifies him as an "ex-skater." I don't see anywhere in the ISU rules that disqualifies current judges from being referees or tech specialist/controller.
 
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