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Thread: Nebelhorn Results

  1. #76
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    FanForLady, I think maybe they want to evaluate how it worked, and maybe fine tune it, before committing themselves to making such a big change at the most important competition of the year.

    MM
    Last edited by Mathman; 09-08-2003 at 01:05 PM.

  2. #77
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    Norlite, you are so right about being between the devil and the deep blue sea, in trying to decide which system is more open to corruption, Speedy or the national federations. The fact that this is so -- that the average skating fan says, a curse on both your houses! -- is a huge public relations problem for figure skating as a whole. Is Speedy the puppet of the most powerful blocs of federations, or is he a martinet in his own right calling the tune?

    The ideal situation would be for Cinquanta to step down. But I don't think that is going to happen any time soon (or until hell freezes over).

    Mathman
    Last edited by Mathman; 09-08-2003 at 01:14 PM.

  3. #78
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    Originally posted by Norlite
    Then you must be particularly pleased with the new Technical officials (Controller, Speciallist, [color=red]*[/color][color=red]*[/color][color=red]*[/color]'t Specialist) that is now in use with the CoP, Mathman. These positions are paid employees of the ISU.
    I, for one, am thrilled by this. To see former skaters like Jan Hoffmann (referee, 2 events), Alexei Urmanov, and Bruno Marcotte (tech specialists) getting paid by the ISU and no longer beholden to their federations makes my heart sing.

    There is a suspicion among some fans that this is Cinquanta's way of getting around federations objections to having judges paid employees of the ISU,( which by the way, is not a WSF idea, Speedy has been trying to implement this for a while now. )
    Hmm, I wonder why the Federations don't want to give up control of the judges

  4. #79
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    Originally posted by hockeyfan228
    I, for one, am thrilled by this. To see former skaters like Jan Hoffmann (referee, 2 events), Alexei Urmanov, and Bruno Marcotte (tech specialists) getting paid by the ISU and no longer beholden to their federations makes my heart sing.
    Referee's are not paid officials. Did I miss this in the information?
    Jan Hoffmann has been an ISU International level judge for some time now. The Tech officials are to be hired from high level skaters or coaches, not established judges.

  5. #80
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    Originally posted by Norlite
    Referee's are not paid officials. Did I miss this in the information?
    Jan Hoffmann has been an ISU International level judge for some time now. The Tech officials are to be hired from high level skaters or coaches, not established judges.
    I read somewhere that the ISU officials would be paid; I'll try to find it.

    Jan Hoffmann might be a long-time judge, but he also won an Olympic silver medal in 1980, and World golds in '74 and '80, silvers in '77 and '78, and bronzes in '76 and '79. I think that qualifies him as an "ex-skater." I don't see anywhere in the ISU rules that disqualifies current judges from being referees or tech specialist/controller.

  6. #81
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    Ahh. I've reread all information.

    I was incorrect in my original post. Only the Tech Specialists / [color=red]*[/color][color=red]*[/color][color=red]*[/color]'t Tech Speciallist (caller) is a paid member of the panel. The Tech Controller is a qualified ISU official. And, of course, referee's and judges, as always.

    Jan Hoffmann might be a long-time judge, but he also won an Olympic silver medal in 1980, and World golds in '74 and '80, silvers in '77 and '78, and bronzes in '76 and '79. I think that qualifies him as an "ex-skater." I don't see anywhere in the ISU rules that disqualifies current judges from being referees or tech specialist/controller.
    The fact that Tech Speciallist is a paid position, disqualifies him from being one. Either that, or give up his eligible status, therefore giving up his right to continue to be a judge. It's either / or. Can't be a judge and / or referee and be ineligible. (it's always been that way)
    he can, however be a Tech Controller, since they are not paid.

    That is why the ISU decided to recruit callers from the ranks of former high level skaters and coaches. No need to worry about eligibility requirements.
    Last edited by Norlite; 09-08-2003 at 05:20 PM.

  7. #82
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    Look - There are the old system and the new system. Both systems are ripe for corruption. That hasn't changed.

    I believe a judge should have the capacity to look at a skater's program and judge it accordingly. His scoring and ranking should be made public. Even the judges of a boxing match make their decision known when there is no knockout.

    The Sport is rank with subjectivity - understandably - but so what? Let's take a look at that subjectivity. It can be seen in the 'old' system. The 'new' system is involved with secrecy. This is fact!!

    With all it's faults I would prefer the old 6.0 and make improvements within that scheme.

    Joe

  8. #83
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    Originally posted by Norlite
    Ahh. I've reread all information.

    I was incorrect in my original post. Only the Tech Specialists / [color=red]*[/color][color=red]*[/color][color=red]*[/color]'t Tech Speciallist (caller) is a paid member of the panel. The Tech Controller is a qualified ISU official. And, of course, referee's and judges, as always.

    The fact that Tech Speciallist is a paid position, disqualifies him from being one. Either that, or give up his eligible status, therefore giving up his right to continue to be a judge. It's either / or. Can't be a judge and / or referee and be ineligible. (it's always been that way)
    he can, however be a Tech Controller, since they are not paid.

    That is why the ISU decided to recruit callers from the ranks of former high level skaters and coaches. No need to worry about eligibility requirements.
    1. Norlite, I am a novice in this judging business, and I am trying to keep up with your posts on this subject. In the first sentence of your second paragraph --this disqualifies him from being one WHAT? A judge? What does "eligible status" mean? Eligible to be a judge or to come back to competitive skating? What is a "qualified ISU official?" (1st paragraph). Who determines the "qualifications."

    Are you saying that to be a judge you cannot receive any money from doing something else in the sport?

    2. I am very pleased to see people like Jan Hoffmann and Alexei Urmanov selected for these positions (I am not familiar with Bruno Marcotte). Hoffmann and Urmanov not only have impeccable
    technical qualifications, but they are men of established integrity.

    3. Did you all notice this article in praise of the "success" of the CoP (from the list of articles on GS main page):

    http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/FigureSkat...178270-ap.html

    My favorite part: "ISU officials believe the new system will make it almost impossible for judges to cheat."

    Mathman

  9. #84
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    Yes Mathman,

    ISU officials (and officials mean judges, referees, not people such as elected executives or hired executives such as administrators) must retain the same eligible status as athletes.


    Jann Hoffman cannot become a Tech Specialist because it is a non-sanctioned paid position. He would lose his position as a judge.

    In the first sentence of your second paragraph --this disqualifies him from being one WHAT?
    A caller.
    My statement about him losing his eligibility was to hockeyfan who said she saw no reason why he couldn't be the caller.

    "qualified ISU official?" (1st paragraph). Who determines the "qualifications."
    Qualified simply means they are 1. Eligible. 2. certified to judge at the level in question by taking the appropriate clinics and exams. 3. A member in good standing with their federation and the ISU
    Last edited by Norlite; 09-08-2003 at 07:25 PM.

  10. #85
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    Mathman - Do you believe this?:

    The gospel acoording to Speedy

    "Work remains to be done but the New Judging System is ready and is a remarkable step forward for figure skating," said ISU president Ottavio Cinquanta.

    "It works in favour of the skaters, informs the public and drastically reduces the risk of problems related to subjective judging," he added.

    Skaters receive marks in five areas: skating skills, transitions, performance/execution, choreography and interpretation.

    At the end of each program, the skater will receive a segment score compiling the technical and artistic scores. The sum of all these grades is the overall competition score determining the winner."

    Hogwash! Can you believe 14 Judges are not going to pad those 5 skating areas? and we will never know what judge gave what skater what score in any of these 5 areas!!! Whoa!

    Joe

  11. #86
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    (Responding to Norlite) Wow, I didn't know that. That's something right there that maybe ought to be changed. Why shouldn't someone like, say, Katarina Witt, be eligible to be a judge if she goes through the training and works her way up through the ranks like everybody else?

    Why do you think they have this rule? Do you think it is just an anachronism held over from the days when "amateurism" was considered virtuous and "professionalism" low class?

    Mathman
    Last edited by Mathman; 09-09-2003 at 09:29 AM.

  12. #87
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    Why do you think they have this rule? Do you think it is just an anachronism held over from the days when "amateurism" was considered virtuous and "professionalism" low class?
    Yes, I just think that's the way it has always been done. Also for the athletes, it gives the federations a little control, I guess for the judges too. They can't work for a rival organization this way.

    I guess it gives the same type of control a company like Microsoft would have with conflict of interest rules, like not being able to work for Microsoft and Apple at the same time.

    Or even other sport organizations. I'm sure baseball must have some kind of rule saying their umpires must be "eligible" or whatever to keep them from going off and working for whoever else in the same field

    About Katt Witt- I totally agree. Maybe in time.................
    Last edited by Norlite; 09-08-2003 at 07:51 PM.

  13. #88
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    Originally posted by Norlite
    Ahh. I've reread all information.

    Where is this published? I'm not questioning that you read this, but I'm an information junkie.

    Thanks!

  14. #89
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    I have a variety of information. We have been discussing this at our rinks all summer.

    Much is explained in ISU communications 1207 and 1224. I have some info from my federation, and some I received from my daughter's coach, who has skaters that must prepare for the CoP this year. In some info the tech specialist is referred to as a "professional" which in skate talk, means "paid" ( as in professional coach) All other newly created officials are referred to as "qualified ISU judges and referees". which are eligible volunteer members.

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    Isn't Jan Hoffman the same person who posted on the FSU over the summer....something that I found a bit weird coming from an organization with a huge public relations problem...but hey...anything is possible at times like this. He did a fine job of describing the COP to the fans though.

    Would I want him to be a technique specialist?. No. Btw, this has nothing to do with his accomplishments and expertise but more to do with his status(a judge) in the ISU. I am sorry but I am having a hard time keeping track of 14 anoymous judges right now. Enough with present and former judges.

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