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Thread: Sasha Cohen - Year in Review

  1. #31
    Custom Woman
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    Joe,
    I approached you via PM about your "Sasha fans get used to it!" post first and put a lot of effort into being clear but respectful towards you. You chose to be dismissive and derogatory towards me in response. I'm sorry if you feel the words "superior attitude" are a "total bash" of you. I don't agree. I approached you privately and never asked that you agree with me; I just asked that you consider what I had to say. You didn't. Thus I posted my concerns. I'll be happy to answer anything else you might have to say on the subject via PM. I don't mind posting them; I just don't want to subject the rest of the forum to any more of it.
    Rgirl
    Last edited by Rgirl; 09-19-2003 at 01:54 AM.

  2. #32
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    rGirl - I felt attacked by your PM and subsequent public remarks.

    The main reason was that there was no intention of bashing Sasha fans. It never entered my mind. It was meant to say that that's what happens when your favorite becomes a top contender. (There are some posts now that AP fans are getting tensed up.) I believe you read the post in the wrong context and I can blame myself for not being clearer in the intitial post.

    The secondary reason for the post was to alert the Sasha fans that this has happened to MK fans and not to let it upset them and they could turn the nitpicking into an example that Sasha has arrived.

    A third reason - one which I will not dwell on - was the fact that I picked up on the idea from another poster. I did not originate the idea but I do agree with it.

    It is apparent my post had an adverse affect on you for which I am sorry, I must state, that you are the only one who complained about the alleged put-down of Sasha fans. If there are others I apologize to them too and reiterate there was no intent on my part.

    Your public sarcastic remark of me remains a bash.

    Joe

  3. #33
    Genealogy Crazed
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    I wasn't going to get in the middle of *whatever this is*, but I decided to add my 2 cents anyway. I personally don't have a problem with the way Joesitz worded any of his posts. I enjoy both Sasha and Michelle's skating so I'm not "anti" any skater. Just because I enjoy a skater doesn't always follow that I enjoy all of his/her fans though. I feel that if I don't agree with what a poster posts, then I always have the option of skipping that person's post which I have done a few times. On the other hand, I do enjoy reading opposing thoughts.

    Lynn

  4. #34
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    Joe,
    I suggested that we discuss this any further via PM. However, you're the moderator and apparently you want to do it en forum. Your call. This post is a big 'un, even by Rgirl standards, but a lot of it consists of my PM to you; your response; and posts from elsewhere so that people can see the context and not have to go jumping around the board.

    First of all, let me say that I hope you know that I have always considered you a forum buddy and with a few exceptions, you have done superb and unrewarded work as a moderator. It seems we have no trouble communicating about any subject--dance, movies, TV, books, etc.--but when it comes to skating, there is something that prevents communication and promotes misunderstanding and anger. The reason I PMd you about this was to try to avoid misunderstanding and anger; but that's not how it worked out.

    I'd like to reiterate that you've been posting this same remark (or very similar) three or four times a year for the past two years. It wasn't just the remark, "Sasha fans get used to it! We Kwan fans have," that I found objectionable. Once, twice, even three times over a period of a year or two and I would have thought, "That's Joe's campaign. We're all entitled."

    Quote: "I felt attacked by your PM and subsequent public remarks."
    Then why didn't you say you felt attacked in your response to my PM?

    Quote: "The main reason was that there was no intention of bashing Sasha fans. It never entered my mind. It was meant to say that that's what happens when your favorite becomes a top contender."
    The issue is not what you intended, but the way it came across. In your reply to my PM, you never said anything about it there never being any intention of bashing Sasha fans. Here's the text of my PM to you and your responses.
    "Rgirl wrote on 09-12-2003 09:52 PM:
    Hey Joe,
    I had a reply to you on the "Sasha Year in Review" thread but I deleted it. I wanted to keep it out of the forum and just talk to you about it. The unposted post went like this:

    Originally Posted by Joe:
    quote:
    Sasha fans, get used to it. Sasha's a good top skater threatening all the other skaters and she will be in for a lot of bashing type posts from her adversaries. Kwanfans know all about this.

    Rgirl's deleted post:
    Joe,
    WE KNOW! WE KNOW! Anybody who is or isn't a Sasha fan is USED TO IT! That's not why the other thread got locked. You have posted this, "Sasha fans, get used to it. Kwan fans know all about it," so many times that if you ever post it again, I'm going to have to bash YOU! Just kidding. This is just teasing, in case anybody thinks I'm serious. Especially Joe.
    Rgirl"

    As I said, I decided to delete it and PM you about this. Although I say I'm only teasing in the deleted post, it's only partially true. I would never want to say this on the board, but frankly, I think your "Sasha fans get used to it. We Kwan fans have" posts are rather condescending and annoy people instead of getting across the message I think you're trying to get across. I'm not even a Sasha fan and they annoy me!

    Here's what I think you're trying to say: 'Every athlete who gets near the top with high expectations gets bashed. It's the way of the world.' I think if you say it that way, or something to that effect, then maybe people will listen and you will get your point across.

    I know you're just using Sasha and Michelle as examples, but it does sound rather dictatorial when someone posts the same thing over and over again, year after year. I know you don't mean it to, but it comes across to me as, 'Hey all you neophite Sasha fans! Top-ranked skaters get bashed, don't you know that you idiots!? We Kwan fans do, as in, 'We Kwan fans know everything; unlike you Sasha fans, we've been around.'

    Like I said, I know you don't mean it to come across like that, but that's how it does--and not just to me, but to other people as well. Personally, I don't think you need to even say 'Top-ranked skaters get bashed. Get used to it' at all. I think most GSers know. And for those who don't, perhaps you could address them individually instead of telling every skating fan 'Get used to it!' as if they are all imbeciles.

    BTW, on the 'Sasha Year in Review Thread' that got locked, we both know it was an ongoing, repetitive, stubborn fight over petty, nitpicky things between two posters that caused the mods, and I think wisely, to lock it. Only those two were involved. That's another reason why I think your 'Get used to it!' posts hurt rather than help.

    I really don't mean to get on your case, it's just that I've heard what people have said during the many times you've posted this before. Your 'Get used to it!' posts haven't come across as very diplomatic--said the ultimate undiplomatic Rgirl I hope you get the gist of what I'm saying and understand that it's nothing against you.
    R

    Joe's response I:
    Exactly! She is a top skater now and it comes with the territory. It's kind of a weird but definitely true compliment. If I've done it more than once, I am trying to get it through those posters heads. It's not as terrible as it sounds, in fact it is complimentary.
    I've had no complaints. I think posters get it.
    Joe
    09-15-2003 09:10 PM


    Joe's response II:
    I forgot to say that you were the only one upset with this. I know how protective you are in Sasha's (Oksana's and Tara's) posts, and I am sorry to have upset you about it. BTW, Mathman consulted me and the other moderators and we agreed. that's our new method.
    Joe
    09-15-2003 09:17 PM

    As you can see, I say, "Here's what I think you're trying to say: 'Every athlete who gets near the top with high expectations gets bashed. It's the way of the world.' I think if you say it that way, or something to that effect, then maybe people will listen and you will get your point across." Thus I said in my PM what you only now just said, ie “It was meant to say that that's what happens when your favorite becomes a top contender.” The wording is not exactly the same, but pretty close. But you never acknowledged it or said something like, "Yes, I did mean that, but I prefer the way I say it in my ‘Sasha fans get used to it!’ posts." I would have had absolutely no problem with that. At least I would have known you were reading what I was saying. As you know, in the past this has been a problem. There was a time last year where you criticized a post of mine for something it never said. You came back later to post that you had reread it, realized you had been mistaken, and apologized. This happened a few times during about a one month period last winter. I was so encouraged. I thought that finally you were making an effort to read what I was saying instead of reacting to your preconceived ideas. But then it stopped.

    Quote: "I believe you read the post in the wrong context and I can blame myself for not being clearer in the intitial post."
    The context was the three posts you made on this subject since 9-6-03, the first two in the "Sasha's Edges" thread, pp12 and 13, and the fifth reply on p1 of this thread, the second "Sasha Cohen Year in Review." They read, respectively:
    SASHA'S EDGES--P12
    Joesitz
    Posts: 4681
    Look Sasha is the No.1 USA entry into Ladies Figure Skating this season, and as such her fans have to go with the punches.

    Michelle is the No.1 USA mystery into Ladies Figure Skating this season, and other than the usual summer nitpicking, no one seems to be punching. Is MK losing it?

    I guarantee both will be on the podium at Nats despite the edges and the 3/3s. Held-up, if necessary.
    Joe
    09-06-2003 02:06 PM

    SASHA’S EDGES--p13
    Joesitz
    Posts: 4663
    Mathman - It's incredible the constant put downs of Mk over the years. First it was Tara, then for lack of someone else it became Irina. Who da thunk Sarah would be THE one Grand Winner when SC was coming on strong. SC is still coming on strong with the fans, and her fans have to realize that she's at the top of her game and she is ez prey to the nonSCs fans. Live with it, the Kwaniacs had to.
    Joe
    09-06-2003 05:50 PM

    SASHA COHEN YEAR IN REVIEW--P1
    Joesitz
    Posts: 4663
    Sasha fans, get used to it. Sasha's a good top skater threatening all the other skaters and she will be in for a lot of bashing type posts from her adversaries. Kwanfans know all about this.
    Joe
    09-11-2003 07:48 AM
    Here’s the context. Your “[Sasha’s] fans have to roll with the punches” post on p12 of “Sasha’s Edges” was preceeded by a post from Registered that, in summary, clarified something Dick Button said about Sasha and said “ Only time would tell weather or not Sasha would find a mental toughness, and stop making "silly mistakes" at the important competitions. But even now, today, and I happen to appreciate many other skaters, I think Sasha is a true skating phenomena. I hope she'll stay healthy for the years to come, and push the sport to the new highs.” On p12, Registered’s post is preceeded by posts by Cburley, SkateCynic, Gezando, Mathman, Rgirl (me), Registered, Fossi, Rtureck, Registered, Rtureck, and Mzheng. People can read them for themselves, but aside from the back-and-forth about Sasha’s merits or lackthereof as a skater between Rtureck and Registered, a devout nonSasha fan and an ardent proSasha fan, the intensity of which was limited to those two, IMO the rest of the thread was the kind of analysis many skaters get. Sasha’s fans were not complaining about any criticisms of her, except for those who felt people had been misquoted. I saw absolutely no need for a “lecture” post from you or anyone about how Sasha’s fans needed to “roll with the punches.” It is you, Joe, IMO, who put your posts in about Sasha’s fans “out of context.”

    In fact, the post immediately following yours on p12 of “Sasha’s Edges” is this one from Mathman:

    Mathman
    Posts: 379
    quote:
    Originally posted by Joesitz
    ---------------
    Look Sasha is the No.1 USA entry into Ladies Figure Skating this season, and as such her fans have to go with the punches.

    Michelle is the No.1 USA mystery into Ladies Figure Skating this season, and other than the usual summer nitpicking, no one seems to be punching. Is MK losing it?

    I guarantee both will be on the podium at Nats despite the edges and the 3/3s. Held-up, if necessary.
    Joe
    -----------
    Joe, what I am most impressed with on this thread is that we have been going back and forth about Sasha's talents and prospects for 12 pages now and nobody has jumped in to bash Michelle or anyone else. I think we all deserve a pat on the back.
    Mathman”

    It seems to me, Joe, that the vast majority of Sasha’s fans on GS are not only used to the criticism Sasha gets, but handle it exceptionally well. BTW, you said in your response to my PM, “I know how protective you are in Sasha's (Oksana's and Tara's) posts...” As I have said to you many times before, I am not a Sasha fan. Neither am I an Oksana or Tara fan. I’m not a “fan” person. I know you’ve said in the past that you think I am “hypersensitive” about Sasha. Wrong on all counts, Joe. I simply hate to see injustice and to see people twist other people’s words around. I like the way Sasha moves, but her basic skating skills are relatively weak. Same with Oksana. Tara started out with great potential, but IMO the hip injury prevented her from improving. She had some good skates on the right nights. The fact is, I like many, many skaters. I have defended many, many skaters in the past, including those I don’t like. I’ve also defended fans of skaters I whose skating I didn’t like. But I’m just not built to be a fan. The last person of whom I can say I was a true fan as in “can do no wrong, OMG, this person is magnificent” was David Byrne, especially during the “Stop Making Sense” days in the early ‘80s. Before that I think it was Kurosawa. But even those were more like crushes. We are not all fans the way you are a fan of Michelle, Joe. I know “fan” is the common word usage, but like I said, I’ve explained my position to you many times before. The only reason I can come up with for why you won’t believe me is because you can’t or won’t understand it.


    Quote: “The secondary reason for the post was to alert the Sasha fans that this has happened to MK fans and not to let it upset them and they could turn the nitpicking into an example that Sasha has arrived.” Duh. Joe, you’ve been “alerting” Sasha fans about this three or four times a year for the past two years. They get it. They got it before you started preaching. But if that’s one of your reasons, again, why didn’t you say so in your response to my PM? Why didn’t you word it that way in your posts? If that was one of your reasons, then I was just “alerting” you that your “Sasha fans get used to it” posts were both unnecessary and IMO made you look as if you had a diparaging attitude toward not only Sasha fans, but fans of any top skater who gets critisized. Also, I was “alerting” you to the fact that using phrases such as “Kwan fans know all about it” makes it sound like you are putting Michelle fans above all other fans. Kwan fans are not the first and won’t be the last to have their favorite skater criticized. Just because Michelle is your favorite skater does not mean that all Michelle fans are “model fans” that everyone else should try to emulate. Kwan fans get just as upset at real or perceived criticism of Michelle as fans of any other skater.

    Quote: “A third reason - one which I will not dwell on - was the fact that I picked up on the idea from another poster. I did not originate the idea but I do agree with it.” Fine. Post your feelings once or twice, choose better wording, then drop it.

    Quote: “It is apparent my post had an adverse affect on you for which I am sorry, I must state, that you are the only one who complained about the alleged put-down of Sasha fans. If there are others I apologize to them too and reiterate there was no intent on my part.” It is not your post singular, but the six to eight posts worded almost verbatim over the last two years that annoy me and others. I was the only one who said something. If you are sorry, why didn’t you say so in response to my PM rather than be so dismissive? If someone makes the effort to try to communicate somethig to you with clarity and respect, either respond in kind or don’t be surprised at the consequences.

    Quote: “Your public sarcastic remark of me remains a bash.” I assume you mean where I say I think your posts express a superior attitude. I don’t think you’re looking at the context, ie, my PM to you, the contexts of the posts, and the repetitiveness of your “Get used to it” posts. Whether it’s a bash is a matter of opinion, IMO. Also, that’s consequences, which I will surely face for having critisized a moderator.

    In summary, I PMd you, Joe, because I first posted something and within about two minutes realized that was wrong. You deserved to be approached privately on this matter and with respect. In response, you gave two short dismissive answers that said you were really being complimentary to Sasha (yeah, right); that I was the only one who felt this way; that you knew how “protective” I was of Sasha, Oksana, and Tara (preconceived ideas again); a condescending “I am sorry to have upset you about it”; and then the following sentence, “BTW, Mathman consulted me and the other moderators and we agreed. that's our new method.” What on earth does that refer to and mean?

    I didn’t and never do expect an “Rgirl length” response from you or anybody. But had you responded to my PM the way you did with this post, I would have been fine with that. Instead, I think you got angry, went on your preconceived ideas about me, and didn’t actually “read” the PM but rather reacted to what you assumed was an attack on you. It never was and never was intended to be. Several times in my PM I say, “I know you don’t mean for [your posts] to sound condescending” and in the final paragraph I say, “I really don't mean to get on your case, it's just that I've heard what people have said during the many times you've posted this before... I hope you get the gist of what I'm saying and understand that it's nothing against you.” Perhaps I should have been more overt in expressing my support for you. I tried my best to be respectful, clear, and understanding of your POV. I don’t feel you tried to do that at all in response. If it was a one-time post, I would say I was completely at fault for overreacting. But eight or so posts in two years, and that’s a conservative estimate, I think you are taking what some people call a "professorial" stance, Joe; that is, "teaching" us all from a lofty place the "right" way to respond. I know, I've written such posts myself and when I've reread them, barfed. Of course that’s your prerogative, but with it comes criticism.

    I wish you would reconsider why you keep writing these "Sasha fans get used to it" posts (“I am trying to get it through those posters [Sasha fans’] heads”; why just Sasha fans?); if you need to do it at all (as I understand it, nobody except Paula and the moderators as a group are the forum policy makers, and IMO it doesn’t extend to telling people how to feel about a skater); and if you do feel you need to keep making these posts, I hope you will reconsider your wording and attitude. I am sorry for the misunderstandings, but I do feel I did my utmost in trying to work this out with you in private.
    Rgirl

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