OD Results

Joesitz said:

The roar of the crowd got to you, it does to me also. However, that should not be a reason in the scoring.

The poor Shibitani's have been accused of their size, and their age is not appropriate. Is this correct?

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the boys of both team are of the same age

Joesitz said:

Animal Farm is a classic book and referred to by many Political Scientists when a totalitarian regime takes hold.

Your quote: yes but some have more then opinion

In Animal Farm quote: All animls are equal but some are more equal than others.

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Thanks

Joesitz said:

The roar of the crowd got to you, it does to me also. However, that should not be a reason in the scoring.

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I agree. The roaring of the crowd is very much based on the nature of a program too. It is much easier to elicit roars and standing ovation with a program to upbeat, exciting or uprising music as it is easier to draw the crowd in. From what I gather, R/G's FD is to the James Bond and Mission Impossible, which is probably a fast, exciting program. The Shibutanis' FD to Cinema Paradiso is a quieter program. (A little off-topic, but people seem to be really divided over their FD. I find it gorgeous, but a few others find the music and the program to be boring.)

Regarding the results, I don't think we can judge that well without videos and two dividing, albeit insightful accounts. However, I do agree that if the judging is completely fair, there shouldn't be huge differences in some of the more "objective" PC categories, such as Timing, Skating Skills and Execution.

Unfortunately, the quoted block of French is speaking of the FD--of which we are not speaking here. The question was about CD grading, which is not even mentioned in the quoted block. Shibutanis would not be the first team with great CD's & OD's and not so great FD's--particularly ones who have Shpilband as a coach.

Vincero said:

I

Regarding the results, I don't think we can judge that well without videos and two dividing, albeit insightful accounts. However, I do agree that if the judging is completely fair, there shouldn't be huge differences in some of the more "objective" PC categories, such as Timing, Skating Skills and Execution.

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I agree with you
but you are always going to have differences
the USA or Russian judge is always trying to put is 1st team first

dorispulaski said:

Unfortunately, the quoted block of French is speaking of the FD--of which we are not speaking here. The question was about CD grading, which is not even mentioned in the quoted block. Shibutanis would not be the first team with great CD's & OD's and not so great FD's--particularly ones who have Shpilband as a coach.

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so what are you saying do you think the USA Judge would not sink the Russian if they where not in time with the music.and how can you base all your opinion on one view of one post that may known timing or may not
come on Shpilband is more known for FD them CD

dancemaster said:

so what are you saying do you think the USA Judge would not sink the Russian if they where not in time with the music.and how can you base all your opinion on one view of one post that may known timing or may not

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I think she's just trying to go back on topic. In her post, she didn't imply anything about national bias, nor did she imply that R/G did have bad timing.

dancemaster said:

come on Shpilband is more known for FD them CD

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In my limited knowledge, I do think this is the case too. For example, I think Tanith/Ben have traditionally been weakest at the CDs. Please correct me if I'm wrong though.

US judge, CD:
1. S/S (USA)
2. T/B (USA)
3. R/G (RUS)
4. T/A (RUS)
5. V/S (UKR)
6. P/C (CAN)
7. S/B (CAN)

Canadian judge, CD:
1. S/S (USA)
2. R/G (RUS)
3. T/B (USA)
4. P/C (CAN)
5. T/A (RUS)
6. S/B (CAN)
7. V/S (UKR)

At least the top 3 of the US and Canadian judges' placements were the same as the consensus top 3, only in a slightly different order. The Russian judge's top 3 were R/G, V/S and T/A, and two of those were out of the consensus top 3. How is this "fairer" than the US and Canadian judges' placements?

If it is fair and reasonable for former SSR and Eastern European judges to go with their cultural preferences, then isn't it also fair and reasonable for the North American judges to do the same?

Or are some some pigs more "equal" than other pigs simply because they have the force of numbers and they have the power to set up judging panels where the balance is in their favor?

what you are saying both are corrupt .
but you still don't known who was less corrupt
maybe the team R/G was better on the day ..so if that was the case the USA judge really got it wrong...

I don't think the Shibutanis need to change countries to be successful...I was just stating my fantasy (Virtue/Moir and the Shibutanis).

As for R/G, there is no doubt in my mind that they were off the music completely. And in my opinion, they did not even carry as much flow as the Shibutanis throughout the dance. Personally, I can find no justification for the result of the CD. I have seen Grishuk and Platov's Starlight Waltz and their modification in order to lengthen their leg lines. However, I don't even think that R/G even listened to the music. They were consistently rushing the beat and it did not even seem that it was in an attempt to lengthen leg lines.

This is the Shibutani's first year on the JGP circuit and for them to already be contenders is something to be really proud of. They have risen swiftly through the U.S. ranks:
Juvenile - 2nd
Pre-Novice/Intermediate (I guess that is what they call it in the States) - 1st
Novice - 1st
Junior - 4th
This is only their 5th year together and for them to already be at the level they are at is very impressive.

As for the FD, I personally find it spell-binding. They draw the audience into their skating...they show so much maturity for their youth (and they still have 4 more years of eligibility should the use it). And they also show their versatility and superb performance quality.
Maybe I also preferred the Shibutanis FD to R/G because R/G's FD seems so much like the other programs I have seen from them. While it is a different theme, the idea is the same...Quick, fast-paced, frenetic movements.

I actually really enjoyed the other American team's FD (Tibbets/Brubaker) with the exception of the two unfortunate falls. I hope they receive a second JGP. They looked strong.

dancemaster said:

so what are you saying do you think the USA Judge would not sink the Russian if they where not in time with the music.and how can you base all your opinion on one view of one post that may known timing or may not
come on Shpilband is more known for FD them CD

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The quote said only that the person (whom I have no idea whom they are, other than that they write French & feel they are more knowledgeable of ice dance than 2 of their friends) preferred the FD of R&G over the Shibutanis, whose OD they liked, but whose FD they found rather boring. This may be a legitimate opinion, but it has nothing to do with either the CD or OD results of either R&G or the Shibutanis. Just because one team might excel in one phase of the competition, they can drop in another phase, now that COP is in place. (and a good thing, sez I, because it reflects how performances really are.

The French poster also said R&G in the FD reminded them of the young DelSchoes, whom they obviously admired. This is rather amusing, because even as recently as 2003, the DelSchoes had very suspect timing in the CD at Worlds . If R&G are like the young DelSchoes, case closed on their timing. (I was at Worlds 2003.)

Yes, I have seen American and Canadian judges happy to lower the grades of both their own and other countries' teams, based on timing. I have also seen both elevate their own teams, although usually not in concert.

Other than the Bulgarian judge hating R&G's CD's the R&G values are not too alarmingly variable. It is the Shibutanis' grades that are more striking, because they are all over the map. Putting them in 5th (as the Russian judge number 1 did, after Tibbetts & Brubaker, is quite a difference in placing, for sure, and frankly one I find very suspect, indeed as strikingly out of place as the Bulgarian judge's grades.

It is interesting that the Canadian judge loves the Shibutanis even more than the American judge does. This is amusing, because they remind icedanceexpert of the young V&M--perhaps they remind the Canadian judge of V&M, too. American and Canadian tastes are not identical, either.

Interestingly, Judge 3, the Italian, hates the Shibutanis in the CD almost as much as the Bulgarian judge dislikes R&G in the CD. I am open to suggestions as to how that might be so, and what cultural taste differences (or negotiations ) might be involved.

However, I still think that timing should be something that can be objectively judged, and this judging stunk on the timing line for both teams, in that it was way too variable. I can see differing .25, even .50 maybe between 2 judges, but 2.0? No.

dorispulaski said:

The French poster also said R&G in the FD reminded them of the young DelSchoes, whom they obviously admired. This is rather amusing, because even as recently as 2003, the DelSchoes had very suspect timing in the CD at Worlds . If R&G are like the young DelSchoes, case closed on their timing. (I was at Worlds 2003.)
.

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I remember watching D/S from Juniors and they always had great CD( in 2003 not bad marks for someone that was out of time)
that is not to say they didn't have a off day here and there ..
Its funny how you mix the words to suit you
He was referring to the free dance was he not..////
why are you bring the OD up in the same text
Believe what you want
what i am 100% sure is the USA judge would have sank the Russians if he was giving a chance

They had great style & speed, but not so great timing. It also was not good at Skate America in the same era, when I saw them there. We are not talking criminal here, only not up to the rest of their skills.

moved to the cd section

Someone has posted the Shibutani's OD (2007/2008 - Japanese Folk Dance) on YouTube...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cfKdH5q7tKQ

I haven not seen any video postings from Madrid...or any postings of R/G from Italy.

A few photos here from all the junior Grand prix
http://photography.ice-dance.com/2008JGPSeries/

There's a video of the Shibutanis' OD up on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCFMJwJb8i4

That rotational lift in the middle was gorgeous. It just came out from nowhere.

I also like the way they move between the clockwise and counterclockwise twizzles with so few in between steps while still maintaining speed.