ISU rules & loss of eligibility?

Eevun · Oct 7, 2008

Swedish Dancing on Ice started here last week. Pro skaters are, among other, Swedish male skater Filip Stiller and pair skater Niklas Hogner. Filip doesn't compete nowadays but Niklas is trying to find a new partner since he and Angelika Pylkina split up last year. TV and newspaper are now all over him, giving him the information that he will get a lifetime suspension from ISU competition because he now parts in a competition together with foreign skaters (British Tony Irving and Polish Lukasz Rozycki). A decision is not made yet, and everything is being quite excessively. But it made me think, so I read through Constitution & General Regulations 2008l yesterday night. Rule 102.2 mentions when to become ineligibe but it doesn't mention anything about competing with international skaters. 'Stjärnor på is' is not sanctioned by ISU or SKF so my thought was that that's the problem.

So my question is: Is there a rule telling that the amateur skaters aren't allowed to compete with international pro skaters in non-ISU sanctioned competitions? If so, what's the difference? Are you allowed to compete in non-ISU sanctioned competitions with just skaters from your own country? I couldn't find anything about that.

Ptichka · Oct 7, 2008

I am not sure about the rules as they currently stand regarding non-ISU sanctioned events. I believe one has to get an OK from their own federation. Also, if a skater does not do GP in a given season while getting invited to do so, they cannot do any non-sanctioned events either (that's what got Plushenko into trouble a few years back). However, it certainly does not matter if the partner is from the same or different country.

chuckm · Oct 7, 2008

On those shows, aren't the skaters paired with celebrity non-skaters? Therefore, the 'team' is only a temporary one, for the show and it's all for entertainment. In effect, it is exhibition skating and not real competition.

I think Ptichka is right, that the skater's federation has to sanction the appearance or eligibility is lost. That happened to Todd Eldredge in the US when he skated in SOI.

I think the ISU would love to ban outside appearances of this type, but might not get such a measure approved by the Congress.

Eevun · Oct 7, 2008

Thanks.
Niklas' temporary partner in this show is, as chuckm says, a celebrity non-skaters, and she's Swedish. SKF (the Swedish Skating Federation) did warn the skaters before the program was shot that ISU has this rule and that they could get a suspension. If it is like you say, Ptichka, then I wonder why SKF didn't stood behind the competition so he safely could be in it.

This is quite fun because all the viewers are so angry at SKF and blame them for a lot of things. The media got it all wrong from the start and wrote it like it really was SKF that kicked him out (as it already had happened). Poor SKF... It's ISU rules, get it people!

From SKF's homepage:

ISU has a rule saying that a skater who compete in similar competitions where skaters from other countries also compete, is risking a lifetime suspension from international competitions.[...] If these 2 foreign skaters also have Swedish citizenship this ISU rule wont affect anyone and nobody gets suspended.

I want to find this rule about competing with skaters with foreign citizenship. That's only allowed in ISU events?
Apparently, Dancing on Ice counts as a competition and not an ordinary show.

Edit: Plushenko and Cohen are doing comeback this season. How does that work? Because they haven't just been sitting on their bums since they ended with competitions. Or maybe that doesn't count since they had status 'retired' or something similar. And Niklas Hogner still counts as 'active'. I think it cleared while I wrote, am I right about my theory?

Ptichka · Oct 7, 2008

Well, complete rules are here - http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4844-192306-209529-141863-0-file,00.pdf. Eligibility is addressed in 102. Relevant portions are below. Nowhere is a distinction made between international and "mono-national" couples.

b) an eligible person is one who elects to take part only in International Competitions which are:
i) sanctioned by the Member and/or the ISU;
ii) conducted by ISU recognized and approved Officials, including Referees, Technical Controllers, Technical Specialists, Judges, Starters, Competitors Stewards and others; and
iii) conducted under ISU Regulations;
c) a Skater wishing to take part in ISU activities

Accordingly, a Skater may receive payments for appearances, endorsements and exhibition performances and still remain eligible, provided:
i) such Skater complies with conditions established by the respective Member of which such Skater is a member concerning such appearances, endorsements and exhibition performances, including all financial arrangements;
ii) payments or other benefits to be received by such Skater for any Skating appearance are made through the respective Member of which such Skater is a member or at least with full information on such payments or benefits given by such Skater to the Member;

2. Definition of an ineligible person
A person becomes ineligible to participate in ISU activities and competitions by:
i) skating or officiating without the prior express authorization of the respective Member, in any capacity in a Skating competition, exhibition or tour in any of the sport disciplines of the ISU;
ii) skating or officiating in a competition conducted by Officials (Referees, Technical Controllers, Technical Specialists, Judges, Starters, Competitors Stewards, etc.) not on the approved list of the respective Member or on the ISU approved list;
iii) skating or officiating in an event not sanctioned by a Member and/or the ISU; or
iv) otherwise violating this Rule 102.

Mathman · Oct 7, 2008

This is the ISU communication that specifically addresses "TV Celebrity Skating Programs" My impression is that the main thing the ISU is concerned about is maintaining ISU control over all skating.

http://isu.sportcentric.net/db//files/serve.php?id=438

...if any such program involves: (1) judging of any kind AND (ii) international participation by skaters (whether eligible or non-eligible) and/or officials from at least two ISU members/countries, the program would be considered by the ISU to be an international competition that requires an ISU sanction (Rule 104, paragraph 15).

To qualitfy for an ISU sanction [a competition] must meet all ISU qualifications including, without limitation, use of the ISU Judging System and ISU officials. Accordingly, participation by an ISU-eleigible skater or Official ... could be evaluated by the proper ISU authorities as a breach of Rule 102, paragraph 2...The result...could be loss of ISU eligibility to skate/officiate in ISAU sanctioned evenats and the Olympic Winter Games.

If there is no international participation, then it all falls under the aegis of the Skating Federation of the individual country. But

As a matter of principle, the ISU recommends to all officials (Referees, Technical Controllers, technical Specialists and Judges) on the ISU list, not to participate in such programs in their country even when sanctioned by the [National Federation]

Does the ISU really propose to judge the efforts of movie stars and pop singers by the CoP? Will any of the pairs attempt a side-by-side single toe-loop and try to get 0.4 points?

Ptichka · Oct 7, 2008

Ridiculous. I think Russia's example has shown that when done right, those shows can boost the sport's popularity and bottom line quite a lot. Maintaining some kind of "sport purity" is, IMHO, quite silly to say the least.

chuckm · Oct 8, 2008

The ISU is being ridiculous. Sure, there is judging at these events, but they are celebrity judges and what they are judging is entertainment value, not technical prowess.

Notice the words "could be evaluated by the proper ISU authorities as a breach of Rule 102, paragraph 2...The result...could be loss of ISU eligibility to skate/officiate in ISAU sanctioned evenats and the Olympic Winter Games. "

If the intention was to enforce the rule, the wording would be 'will be'.

Joesitz (RIP) · Oct 8, 2008

FREEDOM FOR THE ELIGIBLES

Let the skaters skate anywhere they want and can and Let the Long Program be FREE again.

POWER TO THE SKATERS

Tonichelle · Oct 8, 2008

didn't/doesn't the ISU also try to run the professional skating competitions and didn't it get blamed for a lot of the problems that led to the downfall of the Pro Grand Prix and World Pro? Because they started taking over the pro-am type competitions and the like or am I dreaming this up?

Mathman · Oct 8, 2008

My recollection is not so much that the ISU wanted to take over, as rather that they were willing to allow eligible skaters to participate in pro-ams without penalty.

1998 was the big year for the pro-ams. Michelle Kwan and Alexei Yagudin won all of them (although Kurt Browning shoulda-woulda-coulda won the world pro over Yagudin with a fantastic free skate in Washington D.C.) Some of the top pros like Brian Boitano and Kristi Yamaguchi declined to participate, and pro skating took a nosedive that it never recovered from.

Mafke · Oct 8, 2008

These dancing on ice shows aren't my thing and I don't watch them. But they're obviously very good for skating in many, many ways.
If the powers that be in the ISU can't see that and support eligibles taking part in them then they're not just stupid, they're malevolently stupid and trying actively to utterly destroy figure skating.

Joesitz (RIP) · Oct 8, 2008

Mafke said:
These dancing on ice shows aren't my thing and I don't watch them. But they're obviously very good for skating in many, many ways.
If the powers that be in the ISU can't see that and support eligibles taking part in them then they're not just stupid, they're malevolently stupid and trying actively to utterly destroy figure skating.

I will not go to a theater to see figure skating but apparently there is one coming to a TV which if I can watch, I will.

gsrossano · Oct 8, 2008

Mathman said:
My recollection is not so much that the ISU wanted to take over, as rather that they were willing to allow eligible skaters to participate in pro-ams without penalty.

No. They wanted to take it all over!

Eevun · Oct 10, 2008

Mathman said:
This is the ISU communication that specifically addresses "TV Celebrity Skating Programs" My impression is that the main thing the ISU is concerned about is maintaining ISU control over all skating.

http://isu.sportcentric.net/db//files/serve.php?id=438

If there is no international participation, then it all falls under the aegis of the Skating Federation of the individual country. But

Does the ISU really propose to judge the efforts of movie stars and pop singers by the CoP? Will any of the pairs attempt a side-by-side single toe-loop and try to get 0.4 points?

Thanks Mathman, this was what I was looking for! I think the danger is over and the Swedish media had to eat their previous information, it isn't that bad, at least not yet, and will probably never be.
But I agree with the rest of you, something need to be done. I like the rule itself, I think that protects the "real" sport, but on the other hand it feels like it's making it too complicated for the skaters. But ISU can't let it be and set it free either, what would then happen to the amateur skating as we now it?

ISU rules & loss of eligibility?

Eevun

Ptichka

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chuckm

Eevun

Ptichka

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Mathman

Ptichka

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chuckm

Joesitz (RIP)

Tonichelle

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Mathman

Mafke

Joesitz (RIP)

gsrossano

Eevun

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