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Thread: Bring back the 6.0 mark

  1. #1
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    Bring back the 6.0 mark

    Ok first off does anyone even UNDERSTAND CoP????? I know I don't and believe me I tried. For me the jury is still out...way out. After just one comp. I am not willing to say one way or the other. I do know this: There was nothing wrong with the 6.0 system just dirty judges and back room deals. You fix that you fix the problem. Why drastic change in scoring that only confuses skaters, coaches, judges, other ISU officials, and most importantly skating fans watching at home(Like many people have said "it's the fans that pay the bills of this sport) look at Baseball when the players and owners pissed off the fans. This system, even if it is to say in place still needs tweeking and even further explination to fans. I don't like adding scores, together. That just takes us back to the days of school figures when a champion could build up an insermountable lead. What's the point of competition at that point. If an skater would have to place 7th in the LP in order to NOT win the gold. BORING! I like excitment. I like the old system of top 3 control destiny. It was a certain promise of excitment. It seems to me that maybe a skater can jump from 6th to 1st and that is exciting and therefor it is good but it is also seems to be true that a skater can build up huge leads and that is very , very bad! We need balance, the old system had balance. The new system need to prove it does too before anyone is gonna accept it as law. Anyone here old enought to remember Trixi Scharba, and Sjoukje Dijkstra


    FIRE the judges, Keep the 6.0. We as the fans of this sport and we demand better than this speedy
    Last edited by Kwanisqueen81; 09-09-2003 at 11:35 PM.

  2. #2
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    I'm still undecided. About adding the points together for one score, if one skater totally clobbers another in the SP, but the LP is close, I think it's OK to say that the highest point total wins. The LP still counts twice as much as the SP, so there is plenty of opportunity for movement.

    What I like most about the CoP so far (that is, from just one competition) is that we get to see the breakdown element by element. This might help the skaters. If all the judges give you a minus two on your combination spin, then you know where you need work.

    Also, it makes it clear exactly why the judges as a whole favored skater A over skater B. Skater A had two extra bonus points or her triple Lutz and three more on her transitions in the "program components" part, etc. We as fans can still disagree, of course, but at least we know what we are disagreeing with.

    Granted, this does not speak to the question of possible corruption and collaboration on the part of the judges -- but that's true in either system.

    Mathman

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    Bring back the 6.0 mark

    Kwanisqueen81:

    I have not really seen many competitions yet with the new marking system. I prefer the 6.0 system myself, but time marches on and figure skating embraces new changes over the years. Hey, I wish the figures would make a return! I am really from the "old school" of figure skating! It will be interesting to see how and if it works. The problem is there will still be crooked judges making "back room" deals. People are people. Different judging system, same old judges. Just read one of Toller Cranstons' books.

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    Believe me there was plenty wrong with the 6.0 system, with or without cheating. Even if the ISU eliminates all the "cheaters" what's going to stop the judges, from marking based on bias and protocol? Sometimes we can be bias , and not even know it! At least the COP forces you to look at each element and break it down. I'm just sick of the 6.0 system, because to many judges use the presentation mark to manipulate the outcome. While I don't like the secret judging, at least the randomness is gone, and I do like the fact that the highest mark and the lowest mark is thrown out.

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    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Smiley0884
    I'm just sick of the 6.0 system, because to many judges use the presentation mark to manipulate the outcome.
    As far as I can see the judges will still be able to do this under the CoP by manipulating the five "Program Component" marks to make the final point totals work out the way they want them to. This is not necessarity a bad thing, however. This is, after all, a judged sport.

    Mathman

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    Re: Bring back the 6.0 mark

    Originally posted by Kwanisqueen81
    Ok first off does anyone even UNDERSTAND COP????? I know I don't and believe me I tried.
    If you tried then you must have some idea of what is confusing you. Some of us can help. Just ask.

    Not much use in hoping it will go away. It's not.

    Smiley- I agree about the 6.0 system. For different reasons. How many times have we seen a skater during the short program make mistakes that should have garnered .4 total in deductions and end up with a technical score of 5.8 Huh??? What was the base mark? ... We really never had an idea what the judges were doing. It told us nothing

    Mathman- yeah, I agree that the program componets are still subjective. That was part of the reasoning to throw out the top and low marks. Helps a bit.
    Last edited by Norlite; 09-09-2003 at 10:48 PM.

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    Forum translator Ptichka's Avatar
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    I think CoP is an improvement. FS is a sport, and I think it is good to have scores for every element. Same for adding up the scores (on this I like how they do it for singles and pairs, but am still rather confused about dance; btw, how are they going to count in QR in Europeans/Worlds?).

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    btw, how are they going to count in QR in Europeans/Worlds?).
    It's not being used for any ISU Championships this year (Euro's 4CC, Worlds) Only the Grand Prix and Nebelhorn.

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    On the basis of one event (which I didn't see), I think that COP shows promise, although I will reserve judgement until I see it in action (Skate canada- yay). There was plenty wrong with the 6 system- and one important flaw was that skate order was a real determining factor in the outcome- no matter how well you skated, the judges had to "leave room". With COP, you aren't judged against the other skaters, but (ideally) on your preformance on the ice by itself.against the same criteria as everyone else.

    Of course, bias will still come into it, but skating is a judged sport, and judges are only human after all. I think that this system will make things more objective, and thus fairer.

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    Re: Re: Bring back the 6.0 mark

    I guess all I am saying it that if the ISU really wants CoP, they have the responsibilty to educate fans. How many of us do our own mock soreing at home? Also how about a graduated special factor for jumps done the every minute instead of just 1.1 factor for all jumps done after the halfway mark. A triple axle attemped at the end of the program should be weighted more that a triple axle done just 1 second after the half way mark, but that is what the current CoP rules say. Also I feel that a fall on a jump should be given only neglagent value of 0.1(a fall is a incomplete/flawed element in my opinon) no matter the difficulty of the jump. This way skater attempting hard jumps will not really benifit for falls that mar the program. Tell skaters, Coaches, judges, fans, (dick and pegggy too) cthat a "10" in the markign range of the program components represents perfection. In otherwords the power of the 6.0 mark was that in skaters, and fans minds that mark stood for perfetion in this sport(which is a creative sport) we need a some sort of mark that represents perfection. Speedy should have know that CoP would produce this kind of responce I mean changing the 6.0 mark system is a HUGE deal. Of course some people are gonna resist it. If they are gonna to change the system I want to make sure that the new system is an real impovement and not smoke and mirror to the real problem which as I said was dirty judges and back room deals. There is some tweeking that will have to be done.

    I can already see the Wuz robbed theards now

    Comments like "my skater should have gotten a goe of +2 not +1 and was robbed of silver :D will be common
    Last edited by Kwanisqueen81; 09-10-2003 at 12:13 AM.

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    Custom Title boggartlaura's Avatar
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    I basically understand CoP, and generally, I like it. I think it has its flaws, but overall it will be a better system then 6.0.

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    Re: Re: Re: Bring back the 6.0 mark

    [QUOTE]Originally posted by Kwanisqueen81
    I guess all I am saying it that if the ISU really wants CoP, they have the responsibilty to educate fans. How many of us do our own mock soreing at home?

    I really don't understand what else they could be doing in relation to trying to educate us. Short of conducting seminars in all our hometowns.

    Also how about a graduated special factor for jumps done the every minute instead of just 1.1 factor for all jumps done after the halfway mark. A triple axle attemped at the end of the program should be weighted more that a triple axle done just 1 second after the half way mark, but that is what the current CoP rules say.

    There's an idea. Let's make it even more complicated than it already is. That should help with us that "do our own mock scoring at home"

    In otherwords the power of the 6.0 mark was that in skaters, and fans minds that mark stood for perfetion in this sport

    Well, no. At least certainly not in the skater's minds. It actually now means that this particular skater was the best in this particular competition. Simply because the judges had already given out so many 5.9's there was nothing else to do. You won't find a skater that doesn't understand that.

    There is some tweeking that will have to be done.

    No doubt about it. Which is why it's not being used yet for Championships.

    I can already see the Wuz robbed theards now
    Comments like "my skater should have gotten a goe of +2 not +1 and was robbed of silver :D will be common


    Well, like someone else already said, at least we will know what we are arguing about, unlike now.

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    Originally posted by cygnus
    There was plenty wrong with the 6 system- and one important flaw was that skate order was a real determining factor in the outcome- no matter how well you skated, the judges had to "leave room".
    Yes, I agree. There has been cases when a skater undeservedly gets 6,0´s because he is the winner and happened to be the last skater in the final group. For example BOI magazine mentioned in their 2002 Oly review that Yagudin´s 6,0´s were a gift for that performance. LOL, sorry Yagudin fans (running and ducking...). No question about it, that he really deserved to win the competition, but the freeskate was not a great awesome performance. He was hesitant and very obviously played it safe.

    Marjaana
    Last edited by Jaana; 09-10-2003 at 08:16 AM.

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    Eh....I predict the results will be somewhat the same as to what we are used to. I'm surprised that the CoP does NOT seem to favor big jumpers, rather quality skates. That's a good thing I think.

  15. #15
    Forum translator Ptichka's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Norlite
    It's not being used for any ISU Championships this year (Euro's 4CC, Worlds) Only the Grand Prix and Nebelhorn.
    Hmmn, this makes me wonder: CoP seems to favor different skaters than the 6.0 system. So, could the same program that does very well in GP do less well at Worlds? Just a thought...

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