Faulty Jumping Scores

Joesitz (RIP) · Oct 21, 2008

A skater who does not complete the rotations and falls. Is there a downgrade plus the -GoE?

I think, too, that if a skater falls backward on a high level jump, it means he landed on the heel of his blade and was jetisoned backwards but he made the rotations. How is that scored?

chuckm · Oct 21, 2008

If the jump is underrotated, it is downgraded by the caller; if the skater then falls, it gets -GOE (which cannot exceed the base value of the jump) plus a -1.00 deduction for the fall. So if a 3F is UR and fallen on, the base value would be 1.7 minus -1.00 on GOE for a total 0.7, and then the 1.00 fall penalty would be applied. The skater would be MINUS 0.7 overall on the jump.

A fall on a UR quad toe loop would be worth 5.5 -3.00 GOE = 2.5, then the 1.00 deduction for the fall.

antmanb · Oct 21, 2008

chuckm said:
If the jump is underrotated, it is downgraded by the caller; if the skater then falls, it gets -GOE (which cannot exceed the base value of the jump) plus a -1.00 deduction for the fall. So if a 3F is UR and fallen on, the base value would be 1.7 minus -1.00 on GOE for a total 0.7, and then the 1.00 fall penalty would be applied. The skater would be MINUS 0.7 overall on the jump.

A fall on a quad toe loop would be worth 5.5 -3.00 GOE = 2.5, then the 1.00 deduction for the fall.

I think chuckm mean to say a fal lon an under-rotated quad.

Ant

fairly4 · Oct 21, 2008

what i noticed last year is --lets say a triple lutz is worth 6.0 and they call a UR it is down to a double a 2.0 and they take a -3 i. the jump is worth 1.7 or a -7. not sure

Mathman · Oct 21, 2008

chuckm said:
A fall on a UR quad toe loop would be worth 5.5 -3.00 GOE = 2.5, then the 1.00 deduction for the fall.

Wouldn't it be 4.0 (base value for a triple toe loop) - 3.00 = 1.00, before the deduction? So that is a grand total of 0 for the element after the 1 point fall deduction?

fairly4 said:
what I noticed last year is --lets say a triple lutz is worth 6.0 and they call a UR it is down to a double a 2.0 and they take a -3 i. the jump is worth 1.7 or a -7. not sure

I think it goes like this. The base score is reduced to the base score for a double Lutz, 1.9. Then take off "-3" GOE. which comes to -1.00 GOE after factoring. So you get 0.9 points for the element before the fall deduction and -0.1 after the deduction (as in ChuckM's explanation of the underroated triple flip.)

About the skater who lands on his heel and falls backward, I think it would be up to the judgment of the technical panel to decide whether the rotations were complete or not. If the caller says yes, then it's a quad and the scoring would be 9.8 - 4.8 GOE = 5.0, before the 1 point fall deduction. So a total of 4.0 in all (exactly the same as the base value for a triple toe.)

If he started to fall backward but saved himself without actually hitting the ice, he would not get a fall deduction and maybe only a -3.2 GOE, off a base value of 9.8, provided the caller gave him credit for the rotations.

Joesitz (RIP) · Oct 21, 2008

It's very unlikely that a skater who lands a jump on his heel will save himself from falling. He could underrotate a jump and save himself but it's a UR.

I think skaters who land on their heels are trying to prevent an overrotation of the jump but have lost control of the landing.

antmanb · Oct 22, 2008

Joesitz said:
It's very unlikely that a skater who lands a jump on his heel will save himself from falling. He could underrotate a jump and save himself but it's a UR.

I think skaters who land on their heels are trying to prevent an overrotation of the jump but have lost control of the landing.

I suppose that the best a skater landing on his heel could hope for is a step out and maybe a hand down? Does that get you a -2 or a -3 GOE?

Ant

gkelly · Oct 22, 2008

antmanb said:
I suppose that the best a skater landing on his heel could hope for is a step out and maybe a hand down? Does that get you a -2 or a -3 GOE?

The reduction for "Stepping out of landing" is supposed to be -2, -GOE.

If there was also a hand down or other weaknesses in the element, the final GOE might be -3.

If there were some especially good aspects of the jump before the step out, the final GOE could be -1.

Just the step out would usually end up as -2.

I'm not sure what people mean by landing on the heel. I've never seen anyone come down from a jump in such a way that the heel of the blade was the first part of the blade to contact the ice. The human foot just isn't built so that would happen naturally; the skater would have to flex their feet as far as possible in the air.

It's possible for a skater to land in the middle of the blade, which is further back than optimal, with the weight centered too far back, so that they end up falling off the back of the blade after they land. Is that what we're talking about?

antmanb · Oct 23, 2008

gkelly said:
I'm not sure what people mean by landing on the heel. I've never seen anyone come down from a jump in such a way that the heel of the blade was the first part of the blade to contact the ice. The human foot just isn't built so that would happen naturally; the skater would have to flex their feet as far as possible in the air.

It's possible for a skater to land in the middle of the blade, which is further back than optimal, with the weight centered too far back, so that they end up falling off the back of the blade after they land. Is that what we're talking about?

That's what i was imagining - the kind of jump that i've seen is where the skater goes off access in the air and is effectively leaning backwards in the air like this /(albeit not as extreme) such that when they come down their weight is so far back that they barely get a toe pick to the ice first and the weight being back forces them back onto the heel of their blade. To be honest the most times things like that happen seem to be on thrown jumps where the timing all goes wrong and the lady leans back on the take off. (i'll try and see if i can find what i mean on youtube.

Edit: I found a program of Jeff's on youtube where the 3A while rotated came off the back of the heel - the angle is difficult to see because it's from behind - it's at 01.12min http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1GdOkraBHHo

Ant

Blades of Passion · Oct 23, 2008

Oh, yes, you can land on your heel. I'm sure I've managed just about every kind of scary landing possible by this point. Just be happy when nothing twists, is all I can say.

Joesitz (RIP) · Oct 23, 2008

Blades of Passion said:
Oh, yes, you can land on your heel. I'm sure I've managed just about every kind of scary landing possible by this point. Just be happy when nothing twists, is all I can say.

Indeed!

Here's a little test, but be careful. Try a small Jump (with two feet) and you will see that when you land, you will land on the ball of your feet first and then rest the front and back of your foot mini-seconds later. You will still do this with a blade attached to your boot.

Since skating jumps go awry sometimes, some skaters tend to land their jumps on their toe picks. That's a heavy strain on the toes, and in many cases, it will stop the flow of the jumps. and possibly push your body forward to a stumble. (Look at Dambier in youtubes.) . Also if you miss the ball-of-the-foot landing and land on the back of the blade (the heel) which stops the flow of the jumps and a good chance for a fall.

mskater93 · Oct 23, 2008

Jumps are typically landed on the bottom two toe picks and roll back to the middle of the blade, not on the ball of the foot. When you land on the ball of your foot, you typically land flat on the blade, get a UR call, have no outflow from the jump and MAY fall. Ask me how I know. :biggrin:

Blades of Passion · Oct 23, 2008

Joesitz said:
Since skating jumps go awry sometimes, some skaters tend to land their jumps on their toe picks. That's a heavy strain on the toes, and in many cases, it will stop the flow of the jumps. and possibly push your body forward to a stumble. (Look at Dambier in youtubes.)

Well, as mskater says, you definitely want the first part of the landing to be on toe pick and roll down to having the whole blade on the ice. Landing too far forward on the toe pick may cause an imperfect landing, yes.

Landing on the middle of the blade can HURT. Serious jolt to your hip.

mskater93 · Oct 23, 2008

Blades of Passion said:
Well, as mskater says, you definitely want the first part of the landing to be on toe pick and roll down to having the whole blade on the ice. Landing too far forward on the toe pick may cause an imperfect landing, yes.

Landing on the middle of the blade can HURT. Serious jolt to your hip.

Not to mention knee, ankle, and sometime back.

Faulty Jumping Scores

Joesitz (RIP)

chuckm

antmanb

fairly4

Mathman

Joesitz (RIP)

antmanb

gkelly

antmanb

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be

Joesitz (RIP)

mskater93

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be

mskater93

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