Miki Ando pursues regaining her quad jump!

There's a quad in Ando's future
Slimmed down skater says she will try the jump in Everett
http://web.icenetwork.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20081023&content_id=53783&vkey=ice_news

In Everett today, the biggest buzz around the ladies' practice -- once again -- was about Miki Ando and her quad Salchow.

"I did it; didn't you see?" the 20-year-old skater said with a smile. "I will definitely try it in my long program."
...
This time, Ando hopes for a happy landing. She's even shed some ten pounds to help rotate the four-revolution jump.

"I have been trying to lose weight," the skater said. "When I am at my best, my weight is 50 kilos [about 110 pounds]. Last year was not good. I weighed too much. Now my weight is best for my jumps."
...
Ando's coach, Nikolai Morozov, said his skater came to Skate America with what may be her best mindset ever.

"This is a good weight for her; she is in good shape," he said, and then pointed to his head. "This is also good, and that is most important."

Click to expand...

I just don't understand why Miki keeps on training this 4S. Cleverly she doesnot need it , if she hit every triple her planned I think she can compete with Mao, Yuna and the coming talent US girls. Beside, Miki has a shoulder problems, I know she had surgery early before but doesn't she need more carefully about her shoulder? This quad thing may cause damage for her body.

Ayway, I want Miki to have a good season, so wish her all best in SA.

BMI speaking, that's not an unhealthy weight for her height, but BMI is often inaccurate for pro athletes. I did notice she looked thinner in the practice picture.

That said, it's doesn't seem like it's a dangerous weight, so I wouldn't be concerned, especially if it's helping her jumps.

More importantly though, I'm glad that she and Morozov are saying that her mentality is much better. It was heartbreaking to see her last season. I hope she can land the quad.

I'm always amazed that Miki places as well as she does. Miki Ando has absolutely no connection to the music whatsoever. I've seen her on TV, live at Skate America last year, and feel as though the girl skates in a vacuum. Maybe it is because she used to use Morozov staples, but I've never seen a piece of music that she actually interprets and expresses. I hate to say this because she's a sweet girl and I've interviewed her, but she is one of the skaters that really make columnists like Phil Hersh hate the way figure skating is now. With Miki, the programs are a jumping display with background music. Her choreography is rarely in time with the music.

I noticed Miki's lack of musicality right away when she debuted at Worlds 2004. I agree that she still lacks connection to her music and it takes away from the impact of her programs.

Miki has to rely on skating clean and strong to beat Kim and Asada, both of whom display more musical expression than Miki. And Miki has shown that she is capable of clean skating. That's why I'm surprised she is still going for the quad, which has the capability of completely disrupting her program, whether or not she lands it.

Losing weight is not necessarily going to help her fully rotate and land the quad. Emily Hughes lost weight, and she's still underrotating her jumps just as much as she did when she was heavier.

Miki landed her last ratified quad when she was 14, under 5'2", weighing probably no more than 95 lbs, with the body of a prepubescent girl. Miki is now almost 20, she is 5'6" tall, and has a woman's body.

I'm really happy to hear that Miki is practicing well again, and feeling much better mentally. It was so sad last season to see her break down.

While it may not be practically wise for her to try the quad, as it carries greater risk than gain, yet I can understand why she would want to do it anyway. She obviously wants to leave behind the legacy of being the first female quad jumper, and she probably wants to convince others and herself too that she really has it, not only just that once as a junior in a minor competition.

Either way, with or without the quad, it would be lovely to see Miki do a clean a program and be happy with herself. It was such a great sight to see her skate so well at Japanese National's LP last year:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4AVPUpVBbU
Maybe that's her best LP ever. It even seemed musical to me.

woshisunnya said:

I just don't understand why Miki keeps on training this 4S. Cleverly she doesnot need it , if she hit every triple her planned I think she can compete with Mao, Yuna and the coming talent US girls. Beside, Miki has a shoulder problems, I know she had surgery early before but doesn't she need more carefully about her shoulder? This quad thing may cause damage for her body.

Ayway, I want Miki to have a good season, so wish her all best in SA.

Click to expand...

I have to agree. Sure, she can do them in practice, but she ahs only landed it once when it counted, and her only world title she won without even attempting it. Fact is that it will never be consistant enough to try in competition unless she really has nothing to lose. (like 10th after the SP and trying to work her way up). She has nice 3/3's and I think that the time she and her coach spend on that one jump could be put to better use working on her chreo, spirals, and other jumps.

Groshkova said:

I'm always amazed that Miki places as well as she does. Miki Ando has absolutely no connection to the music whatsoever. I've seen her on TV, live at Skate America last year, and feel as though the girl skates in a vacuum. Maybe it is because she used to use Morozov staples, but I've never seen a piece of music that she actually interprets and expresses. I hate to say this because she's a sweet girl and I've interviewed her, but she is one of the skaters that really make columnists like Phil Hersh hate the way figure skating is now. With Miki, the programs are a jumping display with background music. Her choreography is rarely in time with the music.

Click to expand...

This is purely a matter of personal taste and opinion. Pure and simple. Nothing else.

There are plenty of people, including myself, who feel she has great connection to the music.

When she's on, she’s very interpretive and very expressive. I didn’t see it much in her earlier years, but I did starting from her 2006 Scheherazade program, her 2007 short program Samson and Delilah, her recent Bolero exhibition, and her Japan Nationals Carmen performance. Many people in the audience described getting goosebumps from her performance there.

And her spins, IMO, are beautiful.

There are many skaters that I don’t feel have good connection to the music, but Miki is not one of them.

woshisunnya said:

I want Miki to have a good season, so wish her all best in SA.

Click to expand...

:agree:

Is the point value for a "less than perfect" quad sal worth the effort vs. a clean triple?

Maybe the quad is Miki's quest for the motivation she needs to continue to compete. She was in a funk last season and was clearly dissatisfied with the sport but that could have been the result of her shoulder injury.

woshisunnya said:

I just don't understand why Miki keeps on training this 4S. Cleverly she doesnot need it , if she hit every triple her planned I think she can compete with Mao, Yuna and the coming talent US girls.

Click to expand...

I'm not sure but Miki said that "male skaters have evolved in these ten several years, but female are not yet surpassed Midori Ito. So, I'd like to develop figure skating, though it is not yet succeed..." recently.
Sorry for faint memory

woshisunnya said:

Ayway, I want Miki to have a good season, so wish her all best in SA.

Click to expand...

Me too!!!

Welcome, Kudryavka. Thanks for posting. :agree:

lcd said:

Is the point value for a "less than perfect" quad sal worth the effort vs. a clean triple?

Click to expand...

The base value of a quad salchow is a whopping 10.3 this year, compared to 4.5 for a triple.

But the negative GOEs are also increased. Instead of -1, -2, and -3, you get -1.6, -3.2 and -4.8.

So a fully rotated 4S with "-2" GOE would translate into 7.1 points -- well worth it, point-wise. The worst that could happen would be -3GOE and a fall. This would still come to 4.5 -- exactly the same as the base value for a 3S.

As ChuckM points out, though, a quad attempt can disrupt the flow of the program, even when it is successful (men, too). Plus, if you get hit with an underrotation, then you lose almost everything.

DragonPhoenix said:

And her spins, IMO, are beautiful.

Click to expand...

Miki's spins are pretty terrible.

She used to have a good layback (see 2006 Olympics SP), but in 2007 when she won her title, she had lost her ability to do a good layback, her sit position was absolutely atrocious, and she never had great speed or centering in any spin.

Hopefully she has improved this season.

lcd said:

Is the point value for a "less than perfect" quad sal worth the effort vs. a clean triple?

Click to expand...

Larry's right--this year, it's worth it. And Miki has never had a 3A, and others do. And it counts more than it did before, too.

chuckm said:

That's why I'm surprised she is still going for the quad, which has the capability of completely disrupting her program, whether or not she lands it.

Click to expand...

But disrupting a program is not a concern in CoP in which a program a set of numbers of unrelated elements. Look no further than the Turin 2006 pairs final to see how little program disruption counts for. Hit a few big tricks first, then skate around a while waiting for the extra-point time-marker (discrete checking of wristwatch is allowed) and then do some more tricks (the more complicated the better). That's all CoP asks of skaters and anyone who serious thinks that judges are looking at programs holistically is kidding themselves.

As a confirmed quadophobe I surprised she's going to the quad (most over-rated element ever! followed by any Biellmann position) because the chances of her actually hitting in competition are low and that's a big hit in the points, especially if the tech panel decides she's underrotated it by a degree that's imperceptible to 99 % of those in attendance.

I suspect that it's either:
a) psyche! a way of intimidating other skaters (like Arakawa's 3-3-3's in practice)
b) a desire to land the damned thing at least once or twice as a senior so that people will stop saying she could only do it as a junior
c) some combination of a) and b)

Personally I don't find Ando to be unmusical. Her idea of what's appropriate at any given time in relation to the music may not always jibe with that of the majority opinion but that doesn't bother me. She looks like she's expressing something she feels and not trying to meet the expectations of any particular person.
But I like quirky and weird and individual and tempremental and Ando's got all that in spades.
A thought just occurred to me. At the risk of inciting .... strong opinions, she seems like the perfect female icon for gay male skating fans; Always undergoing emotional extremes in public (what ever happened to Japanese stoicism?) and constantly reinventing herself.

I personally find Asada to be much less connected to the music (or maybe too ... analytical) something, talented as hard working as she is I just don't get the Asada message but I loves me some Ando.

dorispulaski said:

Larry's right--this year, it's worth it. And Miki has never had a 3A, and others do. And it counts more than it did before, too.

Click to expand...

A Quad in the program could really help her and she wouldn't depend on the mistakes of others. She gets less PCS than Asada and Kim (which is justified in my opinion) and even with a clean 7 Triple program would need Kim or Asada to make mistakes. With a Quad Salchow and 7 Triples (she managed to fix the flip take-off) she has a realistic chance of beating clean Asada or clean Kim. But if Asada does a killer program including 8 Triples (by the way, is she planning that for her first competition?), then all bets are off.

Mafke said:

Always undergoing emotional extremes in public (what ever happened to Japanese stoicism?) and constantly reinventing herself.

Click to expand...

We could make a video showing Asada weeping after the long program at the GPF 2007, Takahashi weeping after the long program at Worlds 2007, Ando weeping after the long program at Worlds 2007, Ando weeping at Worlds 2008... They are all pretty emotional. That's Japanese stoicism to you. Has Kim ever cried or showed much emotions after a performance? I actually don't remember.

Mafke said:

I suspect that it's either:
a) psyche! a way of intimidating other skaters (like Arakawa's 3-3-3's in practice)
b) a desire to land the damned thing at least once or twice as a senior so that people will stop saying she could only do it as a junior
c) some combination of a) and b)

Click to expand...

I personally feel that (b) is pretty close but also that it's more like a homework she wants to finish for her own sake, not to stop people saying whatsoever. Perhaps a quest of her own identity...something beyond her fans' expectations.
That she lands 4S in practices seems not enough for her, though many of her fans are satisfied with it.

Mafke said:

Personally I don't find Ando to be unmusical. Her idea of what's appropriate at any given time in relation to the music may not always jibe with that of the majority opinion but that doesn't bother me. She looks like she's expressing something she feels and not trying to meet the expectations of any particular person.

Click to expand...

I agree a lot.
She says she likes programs with some story or some emotional script in it. That's her motivation in "expressing", IMO.

Medusa said:

... They are all pretty emotional. That's Japanese stoicism to you. ...

Click to expand...

Yes, when they're natural.
When expressions are intended they are never overdone.
We instinctly leave room to be filled in by the percepter.

Mafke said:

A thought just occurred to me. At the risk of inciting .... strong opinions, she seems like the perfect female icon for gay male skating fans; Always undergoing emotional extremes in public (what ever happened to Japanese stoicism?) and constantly reinventing herself.

I personally find Asada to be much less connected to the music (or maybe too ... analytical) something, talented as hard working as she is I just don't get the Asada message but I loves me some Ando.

Click to expand...

I hadn't really thought about Ando's emotionalism much before, but now you've pointed it out, it seems so true. She definitely shows some signs of an externalizing-type personality, with the emotional displays and wounded bad-girl look she's gone for in some of her programs (which can go with the story of the program, but still it's a choice she or she and her team made), the long flashy fingernails she wears, etc. Not a demure Asian maiden at all, as you point out.

Mathman said:

Welcome, Kudryavka. Thanks for posting. :ageree:

The base value of a quad salchow is a whopping 10.3 this year, compared to 4.5 for a triple.

But the negative GOEs are also increased. Instead of -1, -2, and -3, you get -1.6, -3.2 and -4.8.

So a fully rotated 4S with "-2" GOE would translate into 7.1 points -- well worth it, point-wise. The worst that could happen would be -3GOE and a fall. This would still come to 4.5 -- exactly the same as the base value for a 3S.

As ChuckM points out, though, a quad attempt can disrupt the flow of the program, even when it is successful (men, too). Plus, if you get hit with an underrotation, then you lose almost everything.

Click to expand...

Please someone clarify for me, is an UR penalized more than a fall (I'm thinking that's the case, but hoped that would be changed by now). Thanks!

rallycairn said:

Please someone clarify for me, is an UR penalized more than a fall (I'm thinking that's the case, but hoped that would be changed by now). Thanks!

Click to expand...

Yes, an underrotation is almost always worse than a fall, because if you get hit with an underrotation you almost always get negative GOEs on top of the devaluation of base marks.

In the example of a quad sal, the world's worst (but fully rotated) jump, with a fall, gives you exactly the same as an intended triple with 0 GOE, evean after the mandatory fall deduction. I think they planned it that way.

But an underrotated jump will almost always end up with less than the base mark for the lesser jump.

An underrotated quad salchow would get a base value of 4.5 with -GOE, and would be worth 3 points or less. If the 4S was underrotated and there was a fall, it would a mandatory -3 GOE, leaving 1.5 points, and there would be the -1.00 penalty for the fall, leaving a net 0.5 points.