Inventing Skating Moves

Norlite · Sep 13, 2003

berthes ghost said:
BTW, why didn't the inventors of the toe loop and the flip get a name credit?

A loop is a Rittberger. Probably just called a loop for ease of speech?

Toe loop is still called a cherry flip in a lot of places.

A flip is a Toe Salchow. I guess it was thought that credit should still go to Salchow even though someone else obviously did it first. Like a one foot Axel is still an Axel, and an inside axel is still an axel even if someone else thought of them??

And yes, there is criteria for a toeless lutz in the judge's rulebooks, old ones anyway, I didn't check CoP. But I can't personally remember anyone ever doing one.

Cinderella on Ice · Sep 13, 2003

Both my coach and my former pairs partner have done the toeless lutz. Apparently it was something added into the ISI tests years ago when they were searching for ways to keep people challenged. My partner not only stated that it was very difficult, but he thought it was ungainly looking and had resulted in a lot of injuries with people who were trying to learn it. He said they used to put crash helmuts on because there's a tendency to do one of those "banana peel" kinds of falls if you miss the take-off, causing you to crash backwards onto your back, with your right leg high in the air, and hitting your head on the ice.

Frankly, they both warned me off of even trying it, and since I have 1,001 other things that need work, I guess I'll leave it be!

Norlite · Sep 13, 2003

Cinderella on Ice said:
He said they used to put crash helmuts on because there's a tendency to do one of those "banana peel" kinds of falls if you miss the take-off, causing you to crash backwards onto your back, with your right leg high in the air, and hitting your head on the ice.

Glad they had the sense to wear the helmets!

Joesitz (RIP) · Sep 13, 2003

berthes ghost said:
I like it when the pairs come up with new lifts: the ID, the Hartattack, etc...

I don't think that anyone's invented a jump in almost a century, much to my dismay. BTW, why didn't the inventors of the toe loop and the flip get a name credit?

Way back when, even before I was born, Vaudville shows always had what was called an Adagio Dance Couple. Many of the lifts from those tacky shows showed up in Ballet and Ballroom. Figure Skating just borrowed them and adapted them to ice. Even recently, I noticed one lift where the lady exits a lift by a sommersalt through the man's arms. We called that Skin the Cat in gymnastics. Mind you, far be it from me to put figure skating down, but innovative lifts are, for the most part, brought into figure skating from other art forms. However, slippery ice does bring in the excitement of danger. I approve of the borrowing. I am sure, Dance has borrowed from figure skating.

Also way back in time, a guy named Bruce Mapes (American or Canadian, I don't know) seemed to have been credited with the toe loop and it was called on rollers a Mapes, but on ice, I think Cherry Toe was the name. Anyone have more information on Bruce Mapes?

Joe

berthes ghost · Sep 13, 2003

I think it's funny how some names stick and others don't. NNN is the peson I've even seen do a foward Charlotte. Why isn't it called a Naomi or a Narlotte or something?

One cool move that I've only seen once is how Jacqueline du Bief used to do a camel/illusion/camel/illusion/camel/illusion etc.. spin.

I've read that Annette Potzsch used to do a spread eagle in a layback position, but I've never seen it. Is it true?

Bynx · Sep 13, 2003

Norlite said:
Yeah, it must be easier to show. My daughter just tried it using your instructions and all she could figure out was you just described Slute's 3 turn entrance into her loop.

Could you try to elaborate? (she's willing to try it on the ice if you had more specific instructions and then I can get the "Bynx" ratified.

Okay,
let's see if I can make it a little more clear.
I actually tried it on the ground and it work(single).

I did have irina's 3-turns in mind while trying to explain it the first time, doing the 3-turns would give you better balance.

Here goes

skater how's right handed)
1.Do the set-up for the loop
2.As you are rounding, do the 3-turns. Instead of keeping the free-leg in as Slute does, let the free-leg swing out(It's like one of those ballet moves, a piroette(sp?) I think, but keep the leg low, don't swing it high. Swing it low so to be able to pwer up into the jump.
3.On the third turn, allow the free-leg to swing back and up and your body to rotate to the left

From there, the rest of the jump is like all of the others.
I hope this makes more sense.

The Bynx!
I like the sound of that!

Joesitz (RIP) · Sep 13, 2003

I think Jacqueline du Bief was in Capades after her gold Worlds but I can't really remember. Anyway she did do an illusion spin. I remember the number because she had taken a glass of champagne (fake, of course) and then in her routine was skating all askew and the illusion spin worked beautifully. It was the talk of the skating world in those days.

Didn't Sarah attempt the illusion spin?

Joe

Joe

mpal2 · Sep 14, 2003

Yep,

Sarah tried the illusion. She did 2 in her Fosse program. Sloppy illusion at one end of the rink, down to the other end, another sloppy illusion. :sheesh: I always felt like she got stuck in the middle but still managed to keep going somehow.

I was never impressed by the illusion, but then again I might be if I ever saw Lucinda Ruh doing one. Does anyone know where I could find a clip of a really good one. I know that Kristi and Tara have done them, but I really wasn't all that impressed with theirs either. They were better than Sarah's illusion but I still don't like them.

Joesitz (RIP) · Sep 15, 2003

What about the Charlotte Spin? We wrote about this before, and I believe we thought it is near impossible.

Anyone know if anyone is attempting that? MK seems to be trying it when she holds her back outside spiral and decreasing the circle into a spin. What if she put her leg into the Charlotte and dropped her head? Think it would work?

Joe

mpal2 · Sep 15, 2003

I would love to see a Charlotte spin, but I don't know if anyone would even be willing to try it.

Probably the closest example is Eman's spin "check out my butt" spin.

http://www.kgphotos.com/cgi-bin/RLink/RLink.cgi?Command=DISPLAY&Template=MainFrames

Click on the main picture and then search on Emanuel Sandhu. The picture label is (Emanuel Sandhu 2001 Worlds 1836-4A)

I know there are other skaters doing this but I can't remember who at the moment.

Antilles · Sep 15, 2003

I loved it when A&P started doing reverse lifts, especially the one one from Man in the Iron Mask. Thanks for all the picks everyone. I don't know where the heart attack got it's name. It doesn't seem as scary as it's name would warrant.

Ladskater · Sep 17, 2003

Joesitz:

You are not thinking of the Wally are you? That is a "toe-less" assisted jump.

Ladskater · Sep 17, 2003

Antilles:

Actually, the "head banger" - perfected by Brassuer and Eisler is much more dangerous!

gkelly · Sep 17, 2003

(for counterclockwise rotation)

walley: RBI to RBO

toeless lutz: LBO to RBO

I have seen LBO, unassisted change edge to LBI takeoff as a double and even triple (Yulia Soldatova) -- an unusual entrance into a salchow, but if the edge change were minor it could be called toeless flutz

Once saw a girl who jumped counterclockwise trying to teach the walley to a girl who jumped clockwise -- much confusion and many one-foot salchows ensued

Joesitz (RIP) · Sep 17, 2003

Ladskater said:
Joesitz:

You are not thinking of the Wally are you? That is a "toe-less" assisted jump.

Ladskater. No a toeless lutz is a genuine jump although I have never seen one executed. I think someone like Plush or Vikka could try it out. They have great backoutside edges for a lutz. It's just not a toe-off. Think how difficult that would be. Too many of them and the other hip would go.

A Wally, which when executed properly is a beautiful jump. It takes off always from a backinside edge and lands on the same skate but on a backoutside edge - a kinda kooky loop jump.
It is a toeless jump, however, like the lutz, there is a Toe-Walley That jump looks like there'll be a flip but the skater lands on the opposite edge of the skating edge. Much prefer the former, imo. it has more rythym. Neither have been used in ages, that I can remember.

I'm sure Kurt throws them in his fabulous footwork as single jumps.

Joe

swannanoa54 · Sep 17, 2003

Well, let's see

I liked the Underhill/Martini move where she's skating in front of him and them jumps into his arms without looking back. Anyone know what I'm thinking of?

I remember Dick Button saying that you really have to trust your partner to do that.

dfj · Sep 17, 2003

Re: Well, let's see

realistic51 said:
I liked the Underhill/Martini move where she's skating in front of him and them jumps into his arms without looking back. Anyone know what I'm thinking of?

I remember Dick Button saying that you really have to trust your partner to do that.

It's called a "Leap of Faith" - well named.

Ladskater · Sep 18, 2003

Joesitz:

The Wally is one of my favorite jumps. I prefer the toe-less jump.

I don't think in all of my years as a skater and "arm chair" expert, I have seen or heard of anyone attempting a Lutz without using a toe take-off. The skater would have to be very strong and fearless- Elvis could pull one off, I am sure. I always found the Lutz the most difficult jump. I just did not have enough "spring."

Yes, Kurt does amazing Wally's and as you say can throw a jump in out of nowhere - which is a delight.

SkateFan4Life · Sep 18, 2003

I like the "Hamel Camel", which was invented by Carlo Fassi and Dorothy Hamill and which was a typical ending move for her competitive programs during her amateur days. Flying camel spin, tap, drop to a sit spin. Great move!!

Who invented the "falling leaf" move? That looks so pretty.

Inventing Skating Moves

Norlite

Cinderella on Ice

Bless you, Fairy Godmother, I'm Having a BALL!

Norlite

Joesitz (RIP)

berthes ghost

Bynx

Joesitz (RIP)

mpal2

Joesitz (RIP)

mpal2

Antilles

Ladskater

~ Figure Skating Is My Passion ~

Ladskater

~ Figure Skating Is My Passion ~

gkelly

Joesitz (RIP)

swannanoa54

dfj

Ladskater

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