Ladies Short | Page 12 | Golden Skate

Ladies Short

Andalusia

Final Flight
Joined
Oct 7, 2007
Sorry, I don't see the light years there.


I find it ridiculous that you are calling Joannie overscored while finding nothing wrong with the scored received by the skater below her who made mistakes on TWO jumping passes.


And it's nice that Ando, Kim and Asada have all been held up in PCS forever.

And I find it equallly as ridiculous that you don't see Joannie had two mistakes: she fell and she failed to do a combo. Someone mentioned it wasn't counted that Joannie missed a combo because she fell on the opening jump - if this is the case, well then I think it's just unfair. I don't know if Mao was penalized for singling the loop after the flip, but if she was, I also don't think that's fair because she still did complete a combo, even if it was only a 3-1. Or is it a requirement in the SP that one must do at least a 3-2? And if Mao was deducted for doubling the lutz, well, I didn't know the rules require a triple. I thought a skater was free to do a single or double as the solo jump in the SP if he/she insisted. IMO, the judges should then mark the jump as it is with the base value of either a single/double, instead of penalizing the skater for turning a triple into a double or single.

Actually, I thought Mao and Joannie were both overscored - I would have had them marked lower, with Mao slightly ahead.

And about Miki, Yu-Na and Mao being held up in PCS - I don't agree that Miki should be because her artistry is non-existent, but the other two certainly are deserving of having high PCS. Much more so than Joannie, IMO.
 

Love_Skate

Rinkside
Joined
Mar 24, 2008
Joannie certainly made two mistakes - she fell on her Flip and then completely left out the second jump. That is why falling in the first jump of the combo in the SP is so harsh. You just missed two things.

And I find it equallly as ridiculous that you don't see Joannie had two mistakes: she fell and she failed to do a combo. Someone mentioned it wasn't counted that Joannie missed a combo because she fell on the opening jump - if this is the case, well then I think it's just unfair. I don't know if Mao was penalized for singling the loop after the flip, but if she was, I also don't think that's fair because she still did complete a combo, even if it was only a 3-1. Or is it a requirement in the SP that one must do at least a 3-2? And if Mao was deducted for doubling the lutz, well, I didn't know the rules require a triple. I thought a skater was free to do a single or double as the solo jump in the SP if he/she insisted. IMO, the judges should then mark the jump as it is with the base value of either a single/double, instead of penalizing the skater for turning a triple into a double or single.

As far as I know, Joannie will get -3 GOE for the fall and not fulfilling the requirement together. Isn't -3 the minimum GOE that an element can get? So, score of the combination = score of a 3F - 3
A 3-3 or 3-2 and a triple jump with a step are requirements for the ladies single SP. Mao failed to fulfill the two requirements in her SP.
 
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dgel

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 23, 2004
Requirements for Senior women's short programme

(a) Double Axel Paulsen
(b) One triple jump immediately preceded by connecting steps and/or other
comparable free skating movements
(c) One jump combination consisting of one double and one triple jump or
two triple jumps
(d) Flying spin
(e) Layback or sideways leaning spin
(f) Spin combination with only one change of foot and all three basic
positions (sit, camel, upright or any variation thereof)
(g) Spiral sequence
(h) Step sequence (straight line, circular or serpentine)

A 3-1 combo does not fulfill the requirements, neither does a double preceded by connecting steps
 

Kinga

Medalist
Joined
Feb 15, 2008
Nice big overscore for Joannie! Woot! Nearly 60 points with a splat - it really pays to have the Olympics in Canada, doesn't it?

Caroline: Still that crappy technique on the flip - I was surprised she got the 3-3 around. I thought she looked nervous in the warm-up, and I expected her to do badly. Still, aside from the axel, I thought she was much better than at SC. She must own the spiral along with Mao, and I detected some renewed artistic confidence in her. If she had landed the axel, I'd be pissed if she wasn't in at least second place.

Mao: The best ladies SP for me today. I think nervousness led to the pops - the flip looked very good, and I think correcting the flutzing has made her apprehensive about the lutz. But everything else was wonderful...the spins, spirals...everything was exquisite. She should be ahead of Joannie.

***

Obviously, many of you would give Mao first place even if she popped every jump element. But that's ok, I already got used to it. What annoys me more, is that many Mao fans are not able to appreciate other skaters skating skills. Why cannot you accept, that Joannie's skating skills currently match the top ladies? Her jumps. spins, steps, transitions are not any worse. Her programs are just different than Mao's - different style, different character. Period. I am not a Mao fan, her skating does nothing for me, but at least I am able to say that she is an amazing athlete and that she has great skills, instead of neglecting this.
 

Bennett

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 20, 2007
Just watched the comp!

Joannie. I liked Rochette the best. She was really beautiful. She expressed the music very very well. I also like the music and costume very much. I was happy to be able to see her on high quality TV. Her jumps were strong, her spins were well-centered and powerful, and her skating and steps were really gorgeous. It was such an interesting, attractive program to watch. I also liked her smile at the beginning and ending. She looked very pretty.:yes: I thank her for the beautiful performance:clap: Blavo.

Mao: I am sorry that Mao missed two jumps. It looked to me like she flutzed as well. Missing the combo also reminded me of the last season. Perhaps just nerves?

But I liked the program. It was very beautiful. The music choice was perfect for her. Debussy accentuated the fluidity of her skating. Everything was so smooth and comfortable. I am also happy that she skated to the Major tone like this. Last season, she got two pieces in minor. I think that she looks better in pleasant, comforting music like this. I might have liked it even better if it were piano because she can express delicate nuances.

I also would like to see her skating to Ravel some day:love:

Caroline looked better than SC. I also think that she got more speed? I really liked the step sequences. It was very beautiful and interesting to watch.
I really liked the music and the choreos. I also love the costume. It was one of the most beautiful costumes at the GP series. I am also glad that she smiled.

I wonder if her 3F and 3Lo might have had too much prerotation...? If anyone has insights on this, I would appreciate it.
 

demarinis5

Gold for the Winter Prince!
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 23, 2004
Just watched the comp!

Joannie. I liked Rochette the best. She was really beautiful. She expressed the music very very well. I also like the music and costume very much. I was happy to be able to see her on high quality TV. Her jumps were strong, her spins were well-centered and powerful, and her skating and steps were really gorgeous. It was such an interesting, attractive program to watch. I also liked her smile at the beginning and ending. She looked very pretty.:yes: I thank her for the beautiful performance:clap: Blavo.

Mao: I am sorry that Mao missed two jumps. It looked to me like she flutzed as well. Missing the combo also reminded me of the last season. Perhaps just nerves?

But I liked the program. It was very beautiful. The music choice was perfect for her. Debussy accentuated the fluidity of her skating. Everything was so smooth and comfortable. I am also happy that she skated to the Major tone like this. Last season, she got two pieces in minor. I think that she looks better in pleasant, comforting music like this. I might have liked it even better if it were piano because she can express delicate nuances.

I also would like to see her skating to Ravel some day:love:

Caroline looked better than SC. I also think that she got more speed? I really liked the step sequences. It was very beautiful and interesting to watch.
I really liked the music and the choreos. I also love the costume. It was one of the most beautiful costumes at the GP series. I am also glad that she smiled.

I wonder if her 3F and 3Lo might have had too much prerotation...? If anyone has insights on this, I would appreciate it.

:agree::agree:
 

yunaddiction

Rinkside
Joined
Nov 7, 2008
IMO Mao should don't even need to worry about the flutz deduction too much. She will only attempt one in the FS anyway and the 1.5-2.0 -GOE can be make up with other elements like spins, spiral, etc. Her clean LP even with the flutz is near the 130+ range and so far the only skater capable of reaching that landmark is Yuna. If the judges are going to nail skaters with Lip this season as much as the Flutz, both Mao and Yuna are neck to neck. No skater is perfect.

Do not mix the 2 ladies with wrong edge issue.
Do not try to make people misunderstood about her perfect flip.
Yuna always flip textbook-level ones.
the last case of COC was an accidental mistake by the one-eyed technical panal.
Some judges had to go against and gave +GOE for it.

And the caster of British Eurosport for the COC said...
"...she makes it easy for the judges & the technical specialiest....
And Ito Midori on Asahi TV(Japan) said...
" It looks like a flip (not a lip) to me"
They have eyes and conscience.:clap:

That's it.
....and good luck to Mao in this season.

Personally I have nothing against Mao's flutz.
It could be her strategic choice.
No problem.
 
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Love_Skate

Rinkside
Joined
Mar 24, 2008
I wonder if her 3F and 3Lo might have had too much prerotation...? If anyone has insights on this, I would appreciate it.

I guess her second jump of 3T in the combination is downgraded by underrotation. To me her prerotations of 3F and 3Lo looked in an acceptable range in which most skaters do.
I also liked her performance more than last time. She looked much more comfortable. I hope she can get confidence on her 2A as soon as possible. It's really dragging her down.
 
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turtle

On the Ice
Joined
Nov 8, 2007
What annoys me more, is that many Mao fans are not able to appreciate other skaters skating skills. Why cannot you accept, that Joannie's skating skills currently match the top ladies? Her jumps. spins, steps, transitions are not any worse. Her programs are just different than Mao's - different style, different character. Period. I am not a Mao fan, her skating does nothing for me, but at least I am able to say that she is an amazing athlete and that she has great skills, instead of neglecting this.

I agree with your post 100%. Perhaps I'm not as good as some other posters who seem to know more about the technical side of skating, but I get frustrated when some fans seem to religiously believe that their skaters are best regardless what they do, and refuse to see anything good about other skaters. I also get annoyed when some fans bring up their skaters every time when making comments about other skaters even if their skaters are not in the competition.
 

Bennett

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 20, 2007
I guess her second jump of 3T in the combination is downgraded by underrotation. To me her prerotations of 3F and 3Lo looked in an acceptable range in which most skaters do.
QUOTE]

Thanks for your response:) To me, it is a little bit difficult to compare her flip and loop with other skaters'. I think that what I meant by prerotation might be the strong pull/twist (in both jumps) and high kick (in 3F). She seems to twist the square a lot. When she takes off, she looks as if she were looking at a different direction than other skaters. The twisted square gives an impression that her jumps prerotate. But I do not know exactly what's happening around the blades in slow mo.
 

Andalusia

Final Flight
Joined
Oct 7, 2007
Obviously, many of you would give Mao first place even if she popped every jump element. But that's ok, I already got used to it. What annoys me more, is that many Mao fans are not able to appreciate other skaters skating skills. Why cannot you accept, that Joannie's skating skills currently match the top ladies? Her jumps. spins, steps, transitions are not any worse. Her programs are just different than Mao's - different style, different character. Period. I am not a Mao fan, her skating does nothing for me, but at least I am able to say that she is an amazing athlete and that she has great skills, instead of neglecting this.

Nah, I wouldn't have Mao in first place if she had popped every jump. That's carrying it a bit too far, I think.

Joannie has solid skating skills. Competent spins, spirals etc...nothing extraordinary, IMO. I just think Mao is better than her in those areas and deserves higher GOEs. For example, Joannie's free leg in her Biellmann spiral position is very bent, and, to me, is unattractive. Yu-Na has the same problem, as does Miki and countless others. I pay attention to these things, so it's a matter of personal preference.

As for Joannie's high PCS...for example, in this SP...all that frenetic arm-waving in the footwork section, in addition to other things, is not my idea of artistry. Look at how much more graceful and subdued Mao is in comparison. But once again, as always, YMMV.
 

Love_Skate

Rinkside
Joined
Mar 24, 2008
Thanks for your response:) To me, it is a little bit difficult to compare her flip and loop with other skaters'. I think that what I meant by prerotation might be the strong pull/twist (in both jumps) and high kick (in 3F). She seems to twist the square a lot. When she takes off, she looks as if she were looking at a different direction than other skaters. The twisted square gives an impression that her jumps prerotate. But I do not know exactly what's happening around the blades in slow mo.

I think she looks prerotating more than other skaters who do 3F with slight inside edge connected from 3 turn like her. It seems related with what you indicated. But, to me it looks less or the same prerotation than that of other skaters who do 3F with deep inside edge. The deep inside edge makes inside curve more and makes the prerotation more evident before jumps.

For 3L, as we know, its prerotation is accepted most generously since it is somewhat considered inevitable due to the nature of the loop jump.

Surely, we have different eyes and we can see it differently. :)
 
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Kinga

Medalist
Joined
Feb 15, 2008
Nah, I wouldn't have Mao in first place if she had popped every jump. That's carrying it a bit too far, I think .

I did not address my post directly to you, it was just one of the posts that I quoted. Sorry if this turned out as the personal insult.

As for Joannie's high PCS...for example, in this SP...all that frenetic arm-waving in the footwork section, in addition to other things, is not my idea of artistry. Look at how much more graceful and subdued Mao is in comparison. But once again, as always, YMMV.

For me, Mao's step sequences are too exaggerated when it come to upper body movements. She overuses her chest (throws it out and back too much, at least she did that a lot last season). That is not my idea of artistry, but again, it is also my and only my personal taste. Otherwise, her footwork is very good.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
Personally I have nothing against Mao's flutz.
It could be her strategic choice.
No problem.
Nothing wrong with adding a Flutz to one's routine and accept the penalties because it is better than not doing the accepted number of jumps.

But one has to realize a Flutz puts the skater into a very comfortable position to be able to do triple turns in the air. Much easier than a correct Lutz would.
 

silver.blades

Medalist
Joined
Jan 4, 2007
Country
Canada
Joannie has solid skating skills. Competent spins, spirals etc...nothing extraordinary, IMO. I just think Mao is better than her in those areas and deserves higher GOEs. For example, Joannie's free leg in her Biellmann spiral position is very bent, and, to me, is unattractive. Yu-Na has the same problem, as does Miki and countless others. I pay attention to these things, so it's a matter of personal preference.

I acutually think the opposite in terms of the Biellmann. The straighter leg looks weird, IMO, however, I appreciate how difficult it is to get into that position, and I think both positions, if done well, should get equal GOE. It's just a different estetic.
 

Bennett

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 20, 2007
I think she looks prerotating more than other skaters who do 3F with slight inside edge connected from 3 turn like her. It seems related with what you indicated. But, to me it looks less or the same prerotation than that of other skaters who do 3F with deep inside edge. The deep inside edge makes inside curve more and makes the prerotation more evident before jumps.

For 3L, as we know, its prerotation is accepted most generously since it is somewhat considered inevitable due to the nature of the loop jump.

Surely, we have different eyes and we can see it differently. :)

Wow, thanks again for your detailed explanation out of your busy schedule!
 

Tigger

Final Flight
Joined
Jan 18, 2007
Yes, but you've made 2 mistakes by doing so.



Heh, I wasn't sure who else was using that rhetoric. I thought I spotted others but those are the only two posts I wanting to spend time quoting.

One...Then I guess the judges made the same mistake then as Joannie only got ONE deduction.

Two...Nice try, but I found that offensive and I have never seen any other poster use that wording in this thread.

And now...I'm putting you on ignore as I'd rather have constructive discussions w/people instead of consistantly battering my head into a wall w/someone who won't show the same courtesy.
 

waxel

Final Flight
Joined
Jun 18, 2005
This SP is hideous. They're all a mess. Nerves, ego, bad coaching ... who knows ... but a mess.
 

shine

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 27, 2003
Nah, I wouldn't have Mao in first place if she had popped every jump. That's carrying it a bit too far, I think.

Joannie has solid skating skills. Competent spins, spirals etc...nothing extraordinary, IMO. I just think Mao is better than her in those areas and deserves higher GOEs. For example, Joannie's free leg in her Biellmann spiral position is very bent, and, to me, is unattractive. Yu-Na has the same problem, as does Miki and countless others. I pay attention to these things, so it's a matter of personal preference.

As for Joannie's high PCS...for example, in this SP...all that frenetic arm-waving in the footwork section, in addition to other things, is not my idea of artistry. Look at how much more graceful and subdued Mao is in comparison. But once again, as always, YMMV.
You can think whatever you want, but it will never turn blind the ones who can see the great qualities in Joannie! :love:
 
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