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Thread: The Men's Quad and the Ladies' 3A in 2009

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    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    The Men's Quad and the Ladies' 3A in 2009

    Are we going to see any attempts?

    If so, will we see well executed Quads and 3As in the upcoming season?

    Are they necessary?

    If so, will they decide the respective championships?

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    Off the ice Buttercup's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    Are we going to see any attempts?

    If so, will we see well executed Quads and 3As in the upcoming season?

    Are they necessary?

    If so, will they decide the respective championships?
    1. Yes, but quads will probably be done by fewer skaters than in the past.
    2. See 1.

    Referring only to the guys, because 3As in the ladies are too rare for me to feel comfortable with them as a decisive factor:

    3. If a competition is at a high level, I think so, because these days everyone has learned how to play the IJS game.
    4. Hard to tell, but I think they should insofar as I would like to see champions who have a complete repertoire of jump elements besides high-level steps and spins, good presentation and basic skills. But there aren't many skaters who are capable of all that, so who knows. If I can only have part of that list, I'd dump the high level spins - it's not like the current system rewards the prettiest stuff, anyway.

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    Obviously obsessed Eevun's Avatar
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    The quad guys are retired, injured or seems to have other skating problems. The rest seem focus at a good general impression during the performance. I agree with Jeff; you don't need a quad to be a Worlds champion. I love quads, when they are well jumped, and the skaters not trying so hard that they get hurt.

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    "Hold an edge and look sexy!" museksk8r's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    Are we going to see any attempts?
    Yes, wasted attempts more than likely.

    If so, will we see well executed Quads and 3As in the upcoming season?
    Probably not. On a very rare occasion, maybe.

    Are they necessary?
    I don't believe the 3Axel is necessary for the ladies nor is the quad necessary for the men. What is necessary are right edge takeoff from jumps, full rotation on all the jumps, clean landings, maxed out jumping passes, high quality, high level spins and footwork, as well as impeccable skating skills, transitions, choreography, performance/execution, and interpretation. I hope the skater(s) who combine(s) all these technical elements and program components as well as emotionally move(s) us is/are the rightful victor(s). I hope we see full out skating filled with joy, passion, and freedom! The difficulty is to manage all of this on a consistent basis.

    If so, will they decide the respective championships?
    See above.
    Last edited by museksk8r; 11-18-2008 at 11:15 AM.

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    Custom Title NatachaHatawa's Avatar
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    Please let there be quads!!!!!

    A program can be great without one, but they really add an extra thrill!

    Before skaters used to try and push the thechnical frontier further and further, but these days it's not so much the case. A program can be great without quads, but they do make a program much more thrilling.

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    Gadfly and Bon Vivant Mafke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NatachaHatawa View Post
    Before skaters used to try and push the thechnical frontier further and further, but these days it's not so much the case. A program can be great without quads, but they do make a program much more thrilling.
    Define: technical frontier I would define six triples (performed correctly) as more technically advanced than a skater with a lutz and lip (or flip and flutz) who also has a quad.

    I don't think they're thrilling so much as cumbersome and presentation killing (JMO, YMOV)

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    Sitting Here on Blue Jay Way silver.blades's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NatachaHatawa View Post
    Please let there be quads!!!!!

    A program can be great without one, but they really add an extra thrill!

    Before skaters used to try and push the thechnical frontier further and further, but these days it's not so much the case. A program can be great without quads, but they do make a program much more thrilling.
    But now skaters are pushing the non-jump technical frontier, the spins, footwork and choreography, where difficulty has been mostly ignored in the past in favor of the jumps.
    I do love a well done quad, but I like well done difficult spins and footwork better.

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    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    Oddly enough, the skater who has completed the most quads in competition this year might be Ryan Bradley with 3, 2 at Skate Canada and 1 at TEB in the SP.

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    I can't add much about the mens, but I think the ladies are less inclined to pursue the 3A because it's a huge risk with little payoff. Just look at the world record highs for ladies sp, lp and you can see they're both routines without a 3A.

    There is a reward, but it only comes if the 3A is completed successfully. For most of them, it's just too big of a risk and they would rather spend their time perfecting what the jumps they can actually do.

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    Ice Dance Obsessee lmarie086's Avatar
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    Sure the quad adds some extra thrill to the program when it's done well, but how often is that these days? There is so much else to focus on that I actually kind of prefer to see a well choreographed program with well executed triples, spins and footwork than someone pull in a messy quad.

    In fact, Johnny Weir has had some of my favorite performances at times when he was not attempting the quad. There are other skaters to make examples of as well but he just stands out in my mind because he's been vocal in the past about not liking the importance placed on the quad, and I'd have to agree.

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    Off the ice Buttercup's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by silver.blades View Post
    But now skaters are pushing the non-jump technical frontier, the spins, footwork and choreography, where difficulty has been mostly ignored in the past in favor of the jumps.
    I do love a well done quad, but I like well done difficult spins and footwork better.
    But why should they be mutually exclusive? In the past, the top skaters were pushing themselves technically not at the expense of their other content but in addition to it. And that's pretty much not the case anymore. The spins today are higher level but the way levels are assigned does not necessarily reward the best spins (as Stephane Lambiel can attest). As for footwork, again, we're seeing lots of upper body movement and more intricate steps but personally I find much of it kind of ugly, and a lot of it is very slow, three feet-stop, three feet-stop sort of stufff.

    I don't want to go back to the days when podium placements were regularly decided by who had the most clean triples, but I also don't want singles and pairs skating to overemphasize footwork and choreography to the point that the jumps are scaled back and the sport starts regressing technically. Yes, it's figure skating not figure jumping; but it's not ice dancing either.

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    Gadfly and Bon Vivant Mafke's Avatar
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    For myself I'm untroubled by a lack of quads, but I'll throw out a couple of ideas.

    When quads were more common I always had the impression that the coaches didn't know how to help a skater add a quad and each skater who could quad had basically taught himself (notice oddball technique like the way Goebel would stretch his arms down going into the quad).

    Maybe that's one reason there not more common now. CoP and its requirements for busy ugly spins and frenetic footwork take enough time away from skaters that they can't teach themselves quads (which is going to be time consuming since the coaches by and large don't know how to train quads).

    Just a thought.

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    Sitting Here on Blue Jay Way silver.blades's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buttercup View Post
    But why should they be mutually exclusive? In the past, the top skaters were pushing themselves technically not at the expense of their other content but in addition to it. And that's pretty much not the case anymore. The spins today are higher level but the way levels are assigned does not necessarily reward the best spins (as Stephane Lambiel can attest). As for footwork, again, we're seeing lots of upper body movement and more intricate steps but personally I find much of it kind of ugly, and a lot of it is very slow, three feet-stop, three feet-stop sort of stufff.

    I don't want to go back to the days when podium placements were regularly decided by who had the most clean triples, but I also don't want singles and pairs skating to overemphasize footwork and choreography to the point that the jumps are scaled back and the sport starts regressing technically. Yes, it's figure skating not figure jumping; but it's not ice dancing either.
    But it was mutualy exclusive before. When I watch old programs from before the COP usually my main thoughts after a program are, that was footwork? and why can these skaters not spin? Combination spins have no postions held and the footwork is painfully simple. Maybe it's because I'm of the COP generation, I was 14 when it was introduced, so I didn't really follow the sport before it, but that's what I see. Yes there are problems now with over busy footwork and over complicated spins, but I'd rather see that then Sr. skaters doing spins and footwork that I can do. At least they're pushing and challenging themselves, and that's what sport is suposed to do.

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    Off the ice Buttercup's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by silver.blades View Post
    But it was mutualy exclusive before. When I watch old programs from before the COP usually my main thoughts after a program are, that was footwork? and why can these skaters not spin? Combination spins have no postions held and the footwork is painfully simple. Maybe it's because I'm of the COP generation, I was 14 when it was introduced, so I didn't really follow the sport before it, but that's what I see. Yes there are problems now with over busy footwork and over complicated spins, but I'd rather see that then Sr. skaters doing spins and footwork that I can do. At least they're pushing and challenging themselves, and that's what sport is suposed to do.
    I don't think it was mutually exclusive among the truly elite group. I agree the spins may have been an afterthought for some, but the footwork, while sometimes less complex, wasn't the cookie cutter stuff we're seeing now - which is difficult, maybe, but not very interesting to me.

    But hey, to each their own. I can't do anything on the ice except go forwards and backwards and stop without hitting anything, so it's not like I can emulate the tiniest part of what the skaters are doing. As a spectator, I would like them to add some jumps beyond what they did in juniors. I don't think 80s-vintage jump content should cut it. But that's just me.

    I think the good thing about the IJS is that it forces skaters to work on the areas in which they are weaker. For some this is spins, for some it is jumps, and for others it's the presentation. But there has to be a balance between everything - that's what makes figure skating so great, that it combines all those things.

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    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buttercup View Post
    I don't think it was mutually exclusive among the truly elite group. I agree the spins may have been an afterthought for some, but the footwork, while sometimes less complex, wasn't the cookie cutter stuff we're seeing now - which is difficult, maybe, but not very interesting to me.

    But hey, to each their own. I can't do anything on the ice except go forwards and backwards and stop without hitting anything, so it's not like I can emulate the tiniest part of what the skaters are doing. As a spectator, I would like them to add some jumps beyond what they did in juniors. I don't think 80s-vintage jump content should cut it. But that's just me.

    I think the good thing about the IJS is that it forces skaters to work on the areas in which they are weaker. For some this is spins, for some it is jumps, and for others it's the presentation. But there has to be a balance between everything - that's what makes figure skating so great, that it combines all those things.
    ^^^
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