Is it Kimmie's responsibility? Or in general, coach, skater, or both?

sorcerer · Nov 25, 2008

(Please merge this to any thread if necessary.)

I really enjoyed Kimmie's performance at CoR. I found it well executed and very elegant.
So I automatically thought that her unexpected low score was due to some lack of CoP strategy in the program (especially SP).

My question is, who's fault was it for such a low score for the former champion?
Who lacked strategy?
I can't imagine it's Lori's, since many skaters are getting good scores with her choreo.
Is it Callaghan's role to bring Kimmie good scores? (Probably...)
Or is it Todd's? (Maybe...) Is Todd really capable of maximizing the CoP levels of the elements Kimmie is given to skate within her program?

To view in large you can say that it's the skater who chose the choreographer and the coach(es). There's room to think that whoever chose such staff has the final responsibility.
OTOH, the skater is a student to the coach. Sometimes the coach is said to even dictate over the skater, let alone skating itself but the overall package including the skater's costumes. In that case how can a skater be responsible for the outcome of the scores other than SS, PE, jump failures, or some wobbles in the spirals?

Maybe bit too harsh but I think Kimmie herself did quite well, while the coaches ruined their student's possibility, IMO.

mskater93 · Nov 25, 2008

Kimmie's levels were quite low (LSp1, SpSeq1, CCoSp1). Viewing the program, I can say that these three level issues were all execution and not choreographic mistakes. I state this because:

The LSp1 COULD have been a L2 because she was shooting for the 8 revs in position and then the change to the sideways leaning spin. However, Kimmie did not hold the original position for 8 full revs and the sideways leaning spin did not get 2 full revs, much less 3. Execution issue. Kimmie does not have a strong layback nor does she have a great deal of back flexibility, so a L2 is likely the best she's going to achieve.

SpSeq1 could have been a 3 or a 4 BUT because her free leg was perceived to have dropped below her hip on the COE (I thought it might have dropped that far because she came WAY up in her upper body when she changed edge and the free leg DID drop), it became an automatic L1. Again, this is an execution issue.

CCoSp1 could have been at least a L3 but no position or feature was held long enough to attain the credit. Most of her features were only ~ 1.5 revs of spin. Unfortunately, again, we are talking about an execution issue.

Mathman · Nov 25, 2008

I don't think it is a question of finding someone to "blame." I am sure that everyone is working together, doing the best they can.

Figure skating is a fickle mistress. Today you are world champion, tomorrow -- you're not.

Tinymavy15 · Nov 25, 2008

It is really a collabrative process, but the coach is most responsible for making sure that the skater is skating a program that contains high level elements. On paper, a coach might have a skater who has level 3&4 elements, but if the skater fails to execute the elements in ways which gain levels (holding spins... doing all the turns in the footwork cleanly etc.) than the skater is at fault. That is why skaters get level 2 at some events and level 4 at another. It was always planned to be a level 4, but the skater did something (or the judges saw something ) that lowered the level.

A choreographer such as lori would be well versed in the CoP, but probably also recives input from the coach such as "let's do most of her jumps after the half-way mark" or "really put some intricate steps in there."

In kimmie's case, I think that her low scores are coming from a combination of everything. True, she landed her jumps, but like it or not, this year mistakes on jumps such as underotation and edge calls are bigger than falls. Her spins are niether very fast nor well centered... a problem she has been dealing with for a long time. She has been unable to get a really secure-looking edge on her spirals, especially when she changes edge. These little things are expected to be mastered at the senior level.

In all, kimmie could at once get away with her jumps. She had consistant 3/3 combos and even had that threat of the 3 axel. Now that she does not have confident jumps she has not much to fall back on. True, her aristry has improved, but her second mark will never get near Yu-na or Mao or the other top ladies.

psycho · Nov 25, 2008

See, my issue is why some people assume that just because low levels were skated or the program was skated in a COP-unfriendly way that means that it was planned this way.

HELLO! They are performing in front of thousands of people under extreme pressure. Add to this how complicated the COP programs have become, of course some will make a mistake. Some will not get the required levels, some will do too many jumps, some not enough jumps.

This reminds me of the never-ending discussions on how Johnny Weir "gives away" points all the time becuase he doesn't add a 2T to his programs. People keep saying that he and his coaches need to brush up on COP. It's not like it was planned this way, people! I am sure Johnny plans to do that 2T, just like Kimmie plans to do a L3 sequence, and not L1 that she gets. But when you are competing, things happen. You can't have perfect skates all the time.

I don't understand why anyone should be to blame. Kimmie tried, it didn't work this time, may be it'll work next time. I hope it does.

Joesitz (RIP) · Nov 25, 2008

Rather than knock her as so many posters are ready to do. i'd like to offer a corrective measure for her to work on. What I feel she needs is to work on is projecting her programs both SP and LP. Nagasu is as cute as a button and she can sell that. Zhang is like a ballerina in waiting and she can sell that. Flatt is more of a competitor and kimmie would have to work the CoP harder to match her. Czisney is a more than adequate skater but faulty in front of judges, but they like her when she is 'on'.

Kimmie has to realize that only Kwan can draw in the crowd and judges. She had that special magic which, imo, did not have much Technical. Joubert once said, you can not take your eyes off Kwa. I agree.

So for Kimmie, I say just wow the audience at Nats. Not easy but she can do it.

Tonichelle · Nov 25, 2008

I don't think Kimmie is much of a "wow" skater, though I adore her. She is the girl next door type. And that worked whiles he was skating against Sasha (the diva) and Kwan (the queen) because she stood out against the two powerful 'wow's...

now she just blends in a bit too much. I agree that it wont be easy, and I pray she proves me wrong and does wow everyone... at this point I just hope she can go out there and put down two programs she can be proud of regardless of the score/outcome.

Mafke · Nov 25, 2008

In terms of holding positions long enough, my assumption would be that she's counting in her head but in the stress of competition she counts too fast (stress almost always speeds up reactions and processes too much).

Probably curable if her coaches have her count to 6 or 7 instead of three.

Alsace · Nov 25, 2008

Mafke said:
In terms of holding positions long enough, my assumption would be that she's counting in her head but in the stress of competition she counts too fast (stress almost always speeds up reactions and processes too much).

Yeah, musicians do this all the time, even experienced ones. However, she has the music playing for her, so is it possible for her (or any skater) to count the beats? Dancers do this and surely ice dancers do, too. This may help take the guesswork out of it.

Another thing, can the skaters not count their own revolutions in a spin? Mafke, you seem to indicate that is likely Kimmie isn't doing this.

AwesomeIce · Nov 26, 2008

Joesitz said:
Rather than knock her as so many posters are ready to do. i'd like to offer a corrective measure for her to work on. What I feel she needs is to work on is projecting her programs both SP and LP. Nagasu is as cute as a button and she can sell that. Zhang is like a ballerina in waiting and she can sell that. Flatt is more of a competitor and kimmie would have to work the CoP harder to match her. Czisney is a more than adequate skater but faulty in front of judges, but they like her when she is 'on'.

Kimmie has to realize that only Kwan can draw in the crowd and judges. She had that special magic which, imo, did not have much Technical. Joubert once said, you can not take your eyes off Kwa. I agree.

So for Kimmie, I say just wow the audience at Nats. Not easy but she can do it.

ICK have to disagree on the Nagasu "cute" thing, because for me, that girl waaaaaaaaay overplays the "Look how CUTE I am!" card, and it turns me off from her skating big time. No senior level skater should ever go for "cute." Also, I fail to see the ballerina in Zhang. Flexibility does not equal ballerina. Neither of those girls really draw me into any of their performances.

Mathman · Nov 26, 2008

^ I think Mirai "don't-hate-me-because-I'm-cute" Nagasu is just being herself. Caroline Zhang is a charmer, too. JMO.

sorcerer · Nov 26, 2008

psycho said:
....just like Kimmie plans to do a L3 sequence, and not L1 that she gets. But when you are competing, things happen. You can't have perfect skates all the time.
I don't understand why anyone should be to blame. Kimmie tried, it didn't work this time, may be it'll work next time. I hope it does.

Thank you everyone.

Yes, no one plans level 1 beforehand. Besides, Kimmie received higher levels at SA, even level 3s and one as high as level 4.
Execution strategy, or "making sure", must be the most diffcult of all...

I still think that having been unable to take advantage of the 4 weeks between SA and CoR to secure Kimmie's execution was primarily the coaches' responsibility.
I didn't see any sign of Kimmie lacking confidence in her face both before she hit the ice and after in the K&C. Same with her coach. That's what brought my question.

In any case, I don't want Kimmie to lose confidence in herself.
I want her team to establish their strategy to make things secure.

Spun Silver · Nov 26, 2008

Tonichelle said:
I don't think Kimmie is much of a "wow" skater, though I adore her. She is the girl next door type. And that worked whiles he was skating against Sasha (the diva) and Kwan (the queen) because she stood out against the two powerful 'wow's...

now she just blends in a bit too much. I agree that it wont be easy, and I pray she proves me wrong and does wow everyone... at this point I just hope she can go out there and put down two programs she can be proud of regardless of the score/outcome.

Excellent post. I agree with every word. But I also hope she can get some trustworthy analysis of her problems somewhere. If they are fixable, great. But if her body has changed too much or for some other reason the problems are insoluble, I hate watching her struggle and suffer. Better to remember the WGM and move on. She's only 19, after all!

AwesomeIce · Nov 26, 2008

Mathman said:
^ I think Mirai "don't-hate-me-because-I'm-cute" Nagasu is just being herself. Caroline Zhang is a charmer, too. JMO.

Eh, the problem for Mirai is that she really isn't that cute, and Caroline has all the charm of a toadstool, she is so blank faced when she skates and her motions are so planned and mechanical, nothing looks natural to me.

Mathman · Nov 26, 2008

^ Aw...And they say such nice things about you.

R.D. · Nov 26, 2008

and people said I was the skeptic. Hmm...

AwesomeIce · Nov 26, 2008

Mathman said:
^ Aw...And they say such nice things about you.

Well, they were going to say something nice about YOU but no one could thinkof anything...

Tonichelle · Nov 26, 2008

Spun Silver said:
Excellent post. I agree with every word. But I also hope she can get some trustworthy analysis of her problems somewhere. If they are fixable, great. But if her body has changed too much or for some other reason the problems are insoluble, I hate watching her struggle and suffer. Better to remember the WGM and move on. She's only 19, after all!

I too hope that she's able to figure it out... but at the same time I would think it would be so hard to just throw in the towel even if that's what's best... trying to put down a couple of programs that she's proud of to go out on could be, at this point, the goal.

antmanb · Nov 26, 2008

Alsace said:
Yeah, musicians do this all the time, even experienced ones. However, she has the music playing for her, so is it possible for her (or any skater) to count the beats? Dancers do this and surely ice dancers do, too. This may help take the guesswork out of it.

Another thing, can the skaters not count their own revolutions in a spin? Mafke, you seem to indicate that is likely Kimmie isn't doing this.

I've always wondered how the skaters (particularly pairs skaters calling changes in SBS spins) count their revolutions because if you try and look at something when you spin it makes you really dizzy. I suppose knowing when you get into the spin and countnig against the beats of themusic must be the only way assuming that you consistently spin at the same speed (a must for pairs).

Ant

AwesomeIce said:
Eh, the problem for Mirai is that she really isn't that cute, and Caroline has all the charm of a toadstool, she is so blank faced when she skates and her motions are so planned and mechanical, nothing looks natural to me.

Do you actually like any skaters? Just asking because you seem to have nothing but harsh words for every skater!

Ant

Joesitz (RIP) · Nov 26, 2008

AwesomeIce said:
Eh, the problem for Mirai is that she really isn't that cute, and Caroline has all the charm of a toadstool, she is so blank faced when she skates and her motions are so planned and mechanical, nothing looks natural to me.

We seem to be getting away from what Kimmie is in the form of style. I stick by my perceptions of skaters' styles. Mirai, for example, is 'cute' to me and Zhang is a 'ballerina wannabee' Both ladies can sell that. I believe some posters are taking me serious. What I mean by this is the direction they are going. They actually do not have a firm style yet. They're kids.

Back to Kimmie. For me, she has no discernable style and my feeling is when the judges watch her, they are not moved by anything she does. The CoP does not cover style but it leaks out in various GoEs and Levels.

Is it Kimmie's responsibility? Or in general, coach, skater, or both?

sorcerer

mskater93

Mathman

Tinymavy15

Sinnerman for the win

psycho

Joesitz (RIP)

Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll

Mafke

Alsace

AwesomeIce

Match Penalty

Mathman

sorcerer

Spun Silver

AwesomeIce

Match Penalty

Mathman

R.D.

AwesomeIce

Match Penalty

Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll

antmanb

Joesitz (RIP)

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