Men's LP

Medusa · Nov 30, 2008

Now I have seen it all... I think the quality of the free program wasn't as good as e.g. Cup of Russia.

Reynolds: there are always a few skaters who I just can't stand to watch because they don't seem to know what they are doing out there. He doesn't seem to know what he is doing - he was just told: at this point flail your arms, here do a turn... Everything looks disconnected to me. And the quality of his jumps isn't good, not even the quality of his Quads, no speed out of the jumps, no good edges on the landing. I am glad that they don't give him much PCS. And note to his team: a horrific "artistic" costume doesn't make an artistic skater.

Mura: a powerful skater who looks way stronger and taller than all the other Japanese boys together. His style is also quite different from Dai's, Oda's and Kozuka's. His skating looks aggressive at times, a bit rougher... I like him, great potential.

Carriere: bleh. I am not really sorry that he didn't make the GPF. The program was okay in China when the jumps were halfway on - but here? And can't they give him a real make-over, I always have to think of Scott Hamilton when I see Carriere. He may be good for a spot on the US World team if others really screw it up. Even the guy who became his successor on the Worlds Junior Podium seems more exciting and to have more potential, despite the till now mercurial 3A. Carriere seems to be a really nice guy, but his skating does nothing for me.

Ponsero: Yannick!!! The speed, the edges, the flow... Gorgeous. Great musicality too. And that Quad - to all the Quad haters out there: watch the flawless Quads of Verner and Ponsero this season, aren't they things of beauty? Ponsero's was so amazing: the height, the speed, the incredible smooth landing. And compare this to that Canadian gnome, his Quads look ugly and barely squeezed out. I am glad that one judge gave the Quad a +3, give credit where credit is due. About the other jumps, is it possible that Ponsero has a rather small amount of prerotation compared to other skaters? One of the smart guys on these boards once said that Kurt Browning had so much trouble with landing a good Triple Lutz because he really did 3 rotations in the air. Ponsero's Lutz looks similar and he also had much trouble with it - plus the Flip is still a no-show in Ponsero's programs.

The German Eurosport guys made a sound a bit like Ponsero got robbed - despite all the stuff I loved about him, I just don't think so. He got fairly good PCS, not very much, perhaps not as much as he deserves but he got here as much as Kozuka at TEB. Their styles are comparable in my opinion, except for the fact that Ponsero seems to be a bit more powerful over the ice. Ponsero's long program doesn't have a real wow-factor, it's probably really great when done flawlessly - but he popped two jumps, stumbled on another and started to look a bit anxious after the halfway mark. And the jump layout was rather weak, after the stunning beginning with 4T, 3A, 3Lz - he only landed two more Triple Salchows and one Triple Toe - that's not much. I really agree with the placement.

Weir: His 3A is notoriously underscored, other guys get much more for lower-quality Axels - the British Eurosport guys once suggested that Weir should get positive GOE for the unique landing and arm position. It can't be the lack of transitions with Weir, other guys haven't much transitions into their 3A either - is it the height? But the rules say good distance equals good height.
Then: too much PCS. I am glad that the judges still seem to like him - but he got a bit of a present here, just like Verner did last week. And after having seen the judges sending Joubert away with 73.6 points PCS at TEB - I am really amazed that Johnny got one of the highest PCS so far this season. That said - the program was okay, the jump layout was on par with Ponsero's. But it was nothing special, and I don't think he was really in the music during the step sequences - that was way better in his short program. But kudos to him for fighting through the program and making the GPF.

Oda: I just hate it when the judges want to crown "overwhelming favourites", it nearly put me off Takahashi last season when they showered him with every point they could find at the overscore-4CC. It makes me eye the Superchan with suspicion because I just don't think that he deserves that much more than the others. And the PCS is a joke with Oda, the judges were generous with Weir - but they gave Oda PCS that I cannot understand in any way. Plus the GOEs in the second half? +1.2 GOE for that Double Axel? Oda doesn't deserve more PCS than his compatriot, Kozuka. He has no showman qualities à la Joubert or Takahashi, his interpretation was bland, the only musical part of the program was the last step sequence, he was tense and had 3 very visible mistakes. Give him the 8 or 8.5 for skating skills, shower his spins with GOE because they are that great - but don't make the skaters better than they are. Oda would have won anyway, Weir and Ponsero popped jumps and that's so much more costly than stumbling.

So the placements are correct; I would have had the PCS 72 for Oda, 75 for Ponsero and 74 for Weir. That would have given Ponsero the edge over Weir in the free, but Weir would still have been 2nd overall. It would look much fairer in my opinion.

Overall a rather disappointing freeskate, I liked Ponsero but wasn't overwhelmed by him either, Mura looks like someone with a bright future...

Okami · Nov 30, 2008

Buttercup said:
I'm at a loss, then. It didn't look like a Nichol program to me, and I didn't like it.

When I watched it live at Nebelhorn Trophy and KSM it looked very Lori Nichol to me. Actually, there were post on dcinside, a Korean forum, where some user trashed Nobunari from switching away fro the God Wilson to the mortal enemy Nichol, and said that the footwork sequences were basically a rip-off from Mao's LP last season. It indeed looked quite similar, though I wouldn't call it a rip-off. The step sequences, especially the straightline, have changed a bit since then - less twizzles and running on toepicks in circles, more power. Still, if I didn't know that Nikolai tampered with them, I wouldn't guess it - I find Nobunari's style different from Dai's or Adam's.

I've read quite a lot of choreographers bashing on the English-languaged forums, and the quantity of bashing seems straight-proportional to the amount of programs choreographed. I never got it. IMHO all of the elite choreographers had some special programs, some mediocre, and some bad.
Many are eager to blame the choreographers for poor arms movement, two-footed skating or bad choices of music - but the music is often chosen by the skaters themselves, and the technical issues are caused by the skaters' deficiencies rather than the choreo. The skaters are human, too, and I bet they often find it preferable to do a familiar set of steps rather than something completely new and fall on their butts. I don't doubt they would love to have great arm movements and one-foot footwork, but if achieving those goals would be so easy, the elite skaters would pop up like mushrooms on a rainy day.

I've read many comments where people mistook Dai's "Eye" or Miki's "Bolero" for Morozov's stuff. Or Morozov "Snowstorm" for Lori Nichol's work. Nobu's EX for Wilson stuff, though it's actually Morozov's, and his competetive programs for Morozov's, though they are Nichol's. I doubt this would happen if the choreographers' styles were indeed so distinctive.

I've found that I agree with the UK Eurosport guys about 75% of the time. There are times when I'm just left scratching my head at the disconnect between their perceptions and mine. The swooning isn't that unusual (...)

I agree that the swooning itself is not unusual. However, I was pleasantly surprised by what triggered the swooning. Back in 2006, Kurt and Dick swooned over Nobunari's programs to the point of getting tongue-tied (Uncle Dick), but they said that his footwork needs working on and his step sequences are weak. Back then I posted on FSU that I wish that Nobunari could work with Morozov on his steps - I was very impressed both with Daisuke's step sequences (in Violin Concerto and Phantom) and with Miki's (in Scheherezade).
Now commentators from different stations were like, "Lovely!" when the SlSq started. I did not expect Nobu to be praised for the ice dancers-like footwork, beauty of body positions, and use of music. My experience as a fan taught me that Nobunari has a tendency to underperform because of nerves, and the connection to music and footwork are usually the first to go AWOL when under pressure.
...They sort of went AWOL in the LP, still, it was better than I expected. He could have done worse (and indeed has, on a few occasions).

Buttercup · Nov 30, 2008

Medusa said:
Now I have seen it all... I think the quality of the free program wasn't as good as e.g. Cup of Russia.

Weir: His 3A is notoriously underscored, other guys get much more for lower-quality Axels - the British Eurosport guys once suggested that Weir should get positive GOE for the unique landing and arm position. It can't be the lack of transitions with Weir, other guys haven't much transitions into their 3A either - is it the height? But the rules say good distance equals good height.

ITA about Weir's 3A being underscored. It can look so gorgeous but guys whose axels are no more than competent get higher GOEs. I don't get it.

Oda: I just hate it when the judges want to crown "overwhelming favourites", it nearly put me off Takahashi last season when they showered him with every point they could find at the overscore-4CC. It makes me eye the Superchan with suspicion because I just don't think that he deserves that much more than the others. And the PCS is a joke with Oda, the judges were generous with Weir - but they gave Oda PCS that I cannot understand in any way... Oda doesn't deserve more PCS than his compatriot, Kozuka. He has no showman qualities à la Joubert or Takahashi, his interpretation was bland, the only musical part of the program was the last step sequence, he was tense and had 3 very visible mistakes. Give him the 8 or 8.5 for skating skills, shower his spins with GOE because they are that great - but don't make the skaters better than they are.

Well, I tried to be polite about it but this was more or less my reaction to Oda - a good skater's performance being blown out of proportion. Oda may mature into a great skater but he is not one now. He is a good skater with some very good skills - no more, no less.

Unlike some skaters who bomb at home, Oda seems to excel in Japan and skate underwhelmingly elsewhere. Let's see him get those scores outside his comfort zone, and then we can talk about the podium at Worlds, let alone the top of it.

Okami said:
I agree that the swooning itself is not unusual. However, I was pleasantly surprised by what triggered the swooning. Back in 2006, Kurt and Dick swooned over Nobunari's programs to the point of getting tongue-tied (Uncle Dick), but they said that his footwork needs working on and his step sequences are weak. Back then I posted on FSU that I wish that Nobunari could work with Morozov on his steps - I was very impressed both with Daisuke's step sequences (in Violin Concerto and Phantom) and with Miki's (in Scheherezade).
Now commentators from different stations were like, "Lovely!" when the SlSq started. I did not expect Nobu to be praised for the ice dancers-like footwork, beauty of body positions, and use of music. My experience as a fan taught me that Nobunari has a tendency to underperform because of nerves, and the connection to music and footwork are usually the first to go AWOL when under pressure.

Okami, I cut out most of your post to keep things short, but thanks for your perspective. It's always interesting to hear from fans of skaters who I don't really like or am less familiar with, and it gives me a fresh view about those skaters strengths and weaknesses and highlights things I may not have noticed. You've been doing a great job in laying out what you like about Oda, and IMO it's been a valuable addition to this thread.

Re the Eurosport lot, they tend to be on-point with their gushing - it's generally directed at the skaters' actual strengths, not just random swooning. It's good to have Eurosport coverage available - but it mostly wasn't available live for NHK :scowl:, just the ice dance. I'd take Johnny Weir and Nobunari Oda over F/S any day!

Ginask8s · Nov 30, 2008

I found Oda to be very workman like. He got the job done, but did not engage me in the least. Ponsero was smoking!

inskate · Nov 30, 2008

Congrats to the medalists! :clap:

Very good job from all 3! Nice to see Nobu win in spite of nerves, and Johnny skate well in spite of a cold! :clap:

I really liked Takahito! Very fun program!

Unlike some skaters who bomb at home, Oda seems to excel in Japan and skate underwhelmingly elsewhere.

Aah, but I think Nobunari's most impressive performances and scores were in Canada an America! I think that his BEST performances were at Junior Worlds 2005, Worlds 2006 and Skate America 2006! He rocked there! And his scores were quite huge for a junior/newcomer! He also won 4CC 2006 and Campbells 2006. So I hope that this year in America he will skate good as well!
I think that maybe some of his worst performances were in Japan... NHK 2006 was an exception, he came in as a favorite and skated with confidence... But after losing to Daisuke he lost confidence and did not skate that good... Neither at Japanese Nationals, nor at Worlds which were in Japan... And here he kind of bombed (for his standards) in the LP and said he never felt so nervous in his career...
The PCS for him and Johnny were generous, but I also felt that for the rest of the boys were a bit generous... I was surprised to see Yannick score up to 7.40, not because he wasn't good, but because he's inconsistent and not really noticed as a contender. Maybe now that he won a medal he will get higher scores...

Buttercup · Nov 30, 2008

inskate said:
I think Nobunari's most impressive performances and scores were in Canada an America! I think that his BEST performances were at Junior Worlds 2005, Worlds 2006 and Skate America 2006! He rocked there! And his scores were quite huge for a junior/newcomer! He also won 4CC 2006 and Campbells 2006. So I hope that this year in America he will skate good as well!
I think that maybe some of his worst performances were in Japan... NHK 2006 was an exception, he came in as a favorite and skated with confidence... But after losing to Daisuke he lost confidence and did not skate that good... Neither at Japanese Nationals, nor at Worlds which were in Japan... And here he kind of bombed (for his standards) in the LP and said he never felt so nervous in his career...

His scores tell quite a different story. His top marks were at NHK 2006 and 2008, and he has never come anywhere near the former outside Japan as a senior. His score at 2006 Worlds, without the QR, would have been below 220, and his SA 2006 score was well behind what he got at NHK that year. Do forgive me for not looking up Campbells; but I'm not sure how seriously we should take it.

Okami has made a case for Oda's very high marks at NHK 2006 by stating that he has never skated as well in any other event. I still maintain they were too high, but I respect Okami's opinion that it was Oda at the top of his game. Therefore, while the other performances may have been good and enjoyable, I stand by my original statement.

Joesitz (RIP) · Nov 30, 2008

rallycairn said:
Joesitz said:

.. Oda's major faults skating. (simply my view)

What were Oda's major faults?

Click to expand...

If you go to the On Demand, if it is ready:
Check out the Quad, if you would call that a Quad. Those slips and stumbles and single jumps throughout the routine, and his sorry look bow he took not to mention his almost crying until he realized enough judges overlooked it all. Every skater has poor skating days and this was one for him. I am still a big rooter for Nobunari, but I will reserve praise only when I see it. We can check him out in 4CC.

Click to expand...

inskate · Nov 30, 2008

Buttercup said:
His scores tell quite a different story. His top marks were at NHK 2006 and 2008 (...)

His SA SP was also over 81 points! And that was before the changed value for 3A. And he had a minor problem with flip.
SA LP was nearly 150 with 3A downgraded and stumbles in step sequences. Add to that undowngraded 3A and better PCS for much better skate, and you'll have his NHK 2006 score!

His Worlds SP score was also very impressive! It was nearly 79! He never came close to that before. He was so close to Joubert, who landed a quad! The LP score was of course lower, because he made a CoP mistake and his combo did not count, but his PCS were good for that time! A bit lower than at NHK later, but of course a skater just out of juniors will score lower than a contender for gold!

Check out the Quad, if you would call that a Quad. Those slips and stumbles and single jumps throughout the routine

Dear Joesitz, what have you watched? There was a step out of (fully rotated) quad, wonky axel landing and both hands down after 3F-3T-2L, but no slips or stumbles through the program and no singled jumps! (Unless you meant the stumbles as the stumbles out of axel and loop, in which case sorry for misunderstanding)
He looked totally nervous through the entire skate and after that, and I think it played a major role in making the mistakes he made, but aside from that the performance was clean.

Buttercup · Nov 30, 2008

inskate said:
His SA SP was also over 81 points! And that was before the changed value for 3A. And he had a minor problem with flip.
SA LP was nearly 150 with 3A downgraded and stumbles in step sequences. Add to that undowngraded 3A and better PCS for much better skate, and you'll have his NHK 2006 score!

So, if he scored less and had a downgraded jump and stumbles, why are you arguing that it was a good skate? If anything it was an overscored skate. I like the skaters to execute the elements properly rather than just attempting them.

There was a step out of (fully rotated) quad, wonky axel landing and both hands down after 3F-3T-2L...
He looked totally nervous through the entire skate and after that, and I think it played a major role in making the mistakes he made, but aside from that the performance was clean.

Look, all credit to Oda for skating better than the rest of the field and going for some big elements. But this argument makes little sense to me. Basically, other than the step out, and the hand down, and the wonky landing, he was clean? So what? Other than the fall on the lutz, Joubert was totally clean in his Worlds SP last season! Other than the Zayak mistake and the problems with the jumps and all that, Dai was pristine at the 2008 Worlds LP. Of course every performance is clean if you discount the mistakes. But we do count them, and they do affect the score, and Joe is correct: a skater with those kinds of mistakes should not be getting that high a score.

Earlier in this thread I suggested that the judges are so disappointed with the endless mistakes they are now giving any clean element high GOEs and rewarding relatively clean skates with very high PCS; sometimes they're not even that clean. This is true not just for NHK. My larger point, and this is not directed at Oda, is that a choppy or weak performance should be penalized in the relevant program components, not held up. Competent but unexceptional elements should get almost neutral GOEs, not +1s and 2s. When I look at high scores from earlier seasons under CoP, I know they were earned (Plush's Olympic SP notwithstanding). I don't know that anymore.

decker · Nov 30, 2008

In reverse order of final placement:

I really like Carriere's Firebird program. For me anyway, it's a little bit different and interesting. Now if only he would execute up to its potential.

Mura looked good, but his jump base values were too low, and he needs to tidy up the details.

Reynolds. I do not get the big deal about this guy. He rotates 4 times and lands upright on one foot. Woo-hoo! Then he just sort of flaps around.

Ponsero was fabulous. Fast, crisp and engaging. If he makes all his triples, he can take over the world. But only after he burns that hideous SP costume.

Weir. Mangled a lutz and popped the flip. So no 3rd combo. After backing off the quad due to illness. What can you say? But he looked up to speed, engaged in the program, and clean until the late unpleasantness. And it oughta be a class A felony to give him less than +2 GOE on his axels.

But just so you don't think I'm totally in the tank, the Esmerodo costume ... or is it Quasirelda? ... doesn't do it for me. It makes his butt look doublewide.

Oda. I really enjoyed the SP, but the free was disappointing. Sloppy, tentative and just not all there.

Weir and Oda. I fifteenth the motion. Placements correct. Scores out of line.

Susan

inskate · Nov 30, 2008

Re: Buttercup. I was simply trying to prove a point that the scores at NHK 2006 and in the SP here were not out of line with his other scores! That's one thing.
And the other is the reply to your claim that Nobu skates best in Japan. For me, skating the best is not the same as scoring the best. A minor stumble or underrotation will be noticed by the judges, but does not always spoil a performance! I definitely remember the Junior Worlds, Worlds 2006 and SA performances at the best ones, with great relation with audience and real flair. I could rewatch them over and over. NHK 2006 were technically much superior and deserved higher scores, but Nobu did not look as relaxed as at Skate America. It was skating well in spite of the conditions, not because of them.

Tinymavy15 · Nov 30, 2008

I just watched Johnny's LP, and despite by harsh words last night....I was impressed. That was the most entertained I have been in a long time from him. I thought that he felt the music well, the choreography went with the music and he skated REALLY well considering his condition.

lmarie086 · Nov 30, 2008

I've only seen one so far- will be watching Yannick on my next break...

Johnny-For me, this program still shows signs of being a work in progress. I liked it a lot better than at SA though; there seemed to be more content this time around IMO. I love the music, think it suits him very well. I could watch him do a 3A all day, his is just gorgeous. Circular steps pretty good; recognize some from last season but thankfully they don't all look to be the same. Great 3-3-2 combination. Unfortunately he tired considerably toward the end and it showed in those last two jumps. The end of the program was uneffective-he never gave up on performing but you could see he just wanted to get it over with. I think though that when Johnny is able to give it more energy the end will be very dramatic.

I hope he feels better in time for the GPF.

efreedman · Nov 30, 2008

Bombing

Hsuhs said:
That's what I call bombing

My take on that long program was that Oda was overmarked in the PCS area and Johnny was somewhat undermarked.

You try skating with intense viral load that hampers your muscles from functioning properly. The doubled flip and popped lutz not withstanding, I think that Johnny skated beautifully given the adversities under which he was skating.

Bennett · Dec 1, 2008

Hsuhs said:
That's what I call bombing

No, it was not like bombing. As someone said, neither of the popped jumps were messy. That double lutz was even pretty. Singling a flip was unfortunate though. Both were towards the end of the program and short in time, just one after another, and that's it. Neither disturbed the flow of the overall program. He looked great for the most part. I actually feel that I have barely seen Johnny bombing. He may be experienced enough not to bomb. What my favorite Tomas did at Worlds was something that I would call bombing

Go Tomas!

Hsuhs · Dec 1, 2008

efreedman said:
My take on that long program was that Oda was overmarked in the PCS area and Johnny was somewhat undermarked.

You try skating with intense viral load that hampers your muscles from functioning properly. The doubled flip and popped lutz not withstanding, I think that Johnny skated beautifully given the adversities under which he was skating.

Oda earned only 1.1 more on PSC, compared to Johnny, in the FS. It's not much, IMO. You like Johnny's programs better, the judges prefered Oda's (me too, BTW). Oda's FS TES is 8.18 higher than Johnny's, Oda also skated a cleaner SP, that is why he won, not because Johnny was somewhat undermarked in the PCS area.

You try skating with intense viral load that hampers your muscles from functioning properly. The doubled flip and popped lutz not withstanding, I think that Johnny skated beautifully given the adversities under which he was skating.

I've never tried that, to be honest. But Oda obviously has: he was sniveling and coughing during the medal ceremony. The adversities.... hmmm, what would a guy like Oda know about that?

Bennett said:
No, it was not like bombing.

I should have put that "I" in that sentence in bold. On one hand, a silver medal isn't exactly bombing. On the other hand, Oda - who missed a season and had to start from the beginning - beat Johnny with nearly 12 points overall. Isn't it strange things like this happen to an experienced enough someone? I would have called it bombing if it were someone else. I don't see why I should make an exception for Johnny.

I'm not a fan of either man this season. Nor am I a fan of Tomas.

Bennett · Dec 1, 2008

Hsuhs said:
I should have put that "I" in that sentence in bold. On one hand, a silver medal isn't exactly bombing. On the other hand, Oda - who missed a season and had to start from the beginning - beat Johnny with nearly 12 points overall. Isn't it strange things like this happen to an experienced enough someone? I would have called it bombing if it were someone else. I don't see why I should make an exception for Johnny.

I'm not a fan of either man this season. Nor am I a fan of Tomas.

Sorry if I sounded picky or argumenatitve, which was not my intention. I now understand your definition of bombing, which seems to have been just very different from mine (To me, "bombing" suggests something a lot stronger; a disasterous program where mistakes ruin the whole program, which wasn't the case for Johnny here. But I now understand what you mean and that you seem to use that word very differently than I do).

It was indeed impressive that Oda made such a great comeback. I was worried that nerves might get the best of him or that he would be undermarked due to the absence last season. It is wonderful for him that he did pretty well especially in SP and that his technique and presentation were well respected by judges.

adamlondon · Dec 1, 2008

I think everyone forgets how skating is marked on how people generally skate which should be quite constant. I don't know, if you compare Johnny and Oda I think Oda has superior skating skills because he is faster and his jumps are more spectacular. He jumps higher and has more speed coming out. Don't get me wrong I think Johnny is good but I prefer Oda. I think Oda, Mao and whats his name Takahiko have this floating quality in the ice which many don;t have. So, they will always get high second marks despite jump flaws etc.

Medusa · Dec 1, 2008

adamlondon said:
I think Oda, Mao and whats his name Takahiko have this floating quality in the ice which many don;t have. So, they will always get high second marks despite jump flaws etc.

Then I have just one question: Where is Kozuka's PCS? As far as I know he barely cracked the 72 this season - and I don't see anything in Oda that makes him a better skater than Kozuka. Kozuka got 72.2 for a nearly flawless performance at TEB, a performance that had more flow, more confidence and more interpretation and musicality than Oda's in my opinion.

Why do people try to justify the judges' deeds? Oda got marked on reputation - as got Chan at TEB where the judges used the PCS to make Chan's win over Kozuka look convincing. Weir got reputation marks too. As I said in my posts before - the placements are alright, but why the overscoring? To crown new overwhelming favourites (Chan, Oda...)?

What made me really happy were Abbott's PCS at Cup of China, really high, I think the second or third highest so far this season - for a real high-quality performance. Despite the fact that Abbott wasn't very famous or anything before. And when Abbott seemed overly concentrated and tense in his long at Cup of Russia he didn't get as much PCS. Very well done, I thought. Same goes for Joubert's long programs. He got - for him - relatively low PCS, because the programs look bare, not really finished. Why don't they do this with all the skaters? Mark the skaters on what they are doing that day - and I am sorry, I don't care how spectacular Oda's jumps look - he fell out of two and fell on another one. Nobody in that freeskate yesterday deserved more than 75 PCS in my opinion, nobody had a really good day.

Okami · Dec 1, 2008

Medusa said:
Oda got marked on reputation (...)

Yes, because his reputation is so enviable! :love:

It's not like he was banned for an entire season, infamous for falling apart in the major competitions and not being able to count his jumps... Oh, wait... :scratch:

Men's LP

Medusa

Okami

Buttercup

Ginask8s

inskate

Buttercup

Joesitz (RIP)

inskate

Buttercup

decker

inskate

Tinymavy15

Sinnerman for the win

lmarie086

efreedman

Bennett

Hsuhs

Bennett

adamlondon

Medusa

Okami

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