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Thread: Interesting Johnny Tidbit (On Jumps)

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    and... World Peace! Tonichelle's Avatar
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    Interesting Johnny Tidbit (On Jumps)

    I must have missed this when it was posted in september, but I found something really interesting - to me - in Johnny's last Q&A on his website about those flips and lutzes:

    It seems that many skaters do either a flip from an outside edge or a lutz from an inside edge and from what I’ve learned it has a lot to do with basic body construction. People with narrow hips have an easier time doing outside edges while people with wider hips find it easier to do an inside edge.
    http://www.figureskatersonline.com/j.../interact.html

    I never really thought body type could influence an edge that much. He went on to say that poor technique is also a reason, but I just found his quote above was interesting.

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    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    It is interesting. It certainly would explain why it's women that tend to flutz more, for sure.

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    Awaiting Boris and Oleg
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    I love learning things about the physics of the jumps. Very interesting.

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    Beliver in Sasha's Perfect Program Tinymavy15's Avatar
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    I guess he has narrow hips then, because he tends to lip.

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    and... World Peace! Tonichelle's Avatar
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    ^^ he's skinny as all get out in that region (not that I *study* it or anything lol)

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    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    If he is correct then I would suggest that the skaters who can not do a proper lutz or proper flip, just leave them out. Alternatively, let the system adopt the Flutz and Lip as legitimate jumps but with lower base values. The Tech Panel could call those jumps what they are legitemately.

    After all there is a comfort zone in executing 3 air rotations with a decent landing. That lower base value should make up for the easier take off.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    If he is correct then I would suggest that the skaters who can not do a proper lutz or proper flip, just leave them out. Alternatively, let the system adopt the Flutz and Lip as legitimate jumps but with lower base values. The Tech Panel could call those jumps what they are legitemately.

    After all there is a comfort zone in executing 3 air rotations with a decent landing. That lower base value should make up for the easier take off.
    Isn't a flutz just a flip and a lip just a lutz though?

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    Dreaming and dancing Bennett's Avatar
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    I am getting really confused by the inconsistency in calling and all the theories discussed on boards.

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    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gold12345 View Post
    Isn't a flutz just a flip and a lip just a lutz though?
    In the category of "Things I learned by reading Golden Skate"...

    The majority of the people who are actually skaters say, no, a flutz is not the same as a flip, even though they both take off from the same edge.

    There are other quite well defined aspects of the mechanics of the approach and take-off that are different. In particular, technical specialists have no difficulty in distinguishing the two -- hence a flutz never gets called mistakenly as a flip, but rather as a flawed Lutz.

    On the topic of hips, it would be interesting to test Johnny's hypothesis by looking at particular skaters.

    For instance, both Victoria Volchkova and Elena Sokolova were more curvy than the average figure skater (I'm not sure specifically about the width of their hips), but they both had solid true Lutzes.

    Tara Lipinski was straight up and down, but the flutz was her nemisis.

    Alissa Czisny and Yu-na Kim are slender skaters who have more of a problem with the flip (as per Weir's thesis.)

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    Gadfly and Bon Vivant Mafke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Yu-na Kim are slender skaters who have more of a problem with the flip
    Oh no! You've drunk the cool aid!!!!!!!!!

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    Dreaming and dancing Bennett's Avatar
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    Is Johnny referring to the width of the hips? I also wonder if what he is referring to may have something to do with the inside/outside leg turnout.

    In any case, I think it hard to see the bone structure from the outside. A well-built body can be just a result of having more fat and more muscles.

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    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mafke View Post
    Oh no! You've drunk the cool aid!!!!!!!!!
    I meant, of course, Ms. Kim is a strikingly beautful and prodigiously talented skater, blessed with a lithe and willowy frame. In accordance with Johnny's thesis, she ought to have a textbook perfect Lutz jump -- and she does!

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    L'art pour l'art Medusa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bennett View Post
    Is Johnny referring to the width of the hips? I also wonder if what he is referring to may have something to do with the inside/outside leg turnout.

    In any case, I think it hard to see the bone structure from the outside. A well-built body can be just a result of having more fat and more muscles.
    You are quite smart, you know that? I haven't even thought of inside/outside leg turnout.

    The form of the hipbones, the angles between the bones etc. is one of the most variable factors in our skeleton. It varies between the sexes, between the human races, it has a lot to do with the upbringing of children (e.g. in Africa certain hip disorders are practically nonexistant because of the way women / people carry the babies around).

    I don't know about the relevance of the following facts for figure skating (also haven't found a paper about it), but e.g. in Asian women the HAL (hip axis length), the NSA (neck shaft angle) and the FNW (femoral neck width) are all smaller than in European women - the African women are somewhere between the Asian and the European women. That has some fantastic consequences for Asian women, e.g. is their risk of suffering a hip fracture just 50% of the risk that a European (Caucasian) woman has. But I don't know if these differences could have anything to do with figure skating jumps...

    An interesting difference between the sexes is that the muscles and ligaments that stabilise the male pelvis are much stronger and tighter than the ones that stabilise the female pelvis (reasons should be obvious). Since we have a large number of female flutzers but not many male flutzers - is it perhaps easier for men to maintain the outside edge because of the stronger ligaments etc.?

    All pure speculation, but it's fun. I can't believe I can't find a decent paper on this...

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    Obviously obsessed Eevun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Medusa View Post
    An interesting difference between the sexes is that the muscles and ligaments that stabilise the male pelvis are much stronger and tighter than the ones that stabilise the female pelvis (reasons should be obvious). Since we have a large number of female flutzers but not many male flutzers - is it perhaps easier for men to maintain the outside edge because of the stronger ligaments etc.?.
    You're quite smart too, Medusa! This was really interesting, thanks!

    I don't know if I got this right, but a flip with an edge call is a flutz? Just looked throught the protocol from NHK Mens FS. 7/12 skaters have mostly 'e' (one '!') on their flips. 1 got edge call on a Lutz. My brain is to messed up to make a conclusion of this, but maybe someone else can
    Last edited by Eevun; 12-03-2008 at 10:17 PM.

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    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Medusa
    The form of the hipbones, the angles between the bones etc. is one of the most variable factors in our skeleton....
    OK, with all that erudition now I am embarrassed to throw in my 2 cents. But I always supposed it was like this. If you have narrow hips (like a man), then your legs are more nearly straight under you, whereas if you have wider hips, then the neck of the femur sticks out more to the side.

    http://hippie.nu/~unicorn/tut/img/ba...-skeleton.jpeg

    In seems clear in this picture that the lady (on the right) is going to put more stress on her hip sockets by jumping up and down than the man (on the right) will.

    As for a Lutz versus a flip, to me it looks really hard for the lady (on the right) to stand on her outside edges.

    On the other hand, for a forward fan spiral...

    http://opinionhead.com/wp-content/up...3/skeleton.png

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