Interesting Johnny Tidbit (On Jumps) | Golden Skate

Interesting Johnny Tidbit (On Jumps)

Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll
Record Breaker
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Jun 27, 2003
I must have missed this when it was posted in september, but I found something really interesting - to me - in Johnny's last Q&A on his website about those flips and lutzes:

It seems that many skaters do either a flip from an outside edge or a lutz from an inside edge and from what I’ve learned it has a lot to do with basic body construction. People with narrow hips have an easier time doing outside edges while people with wider hips find it easier to do an inside edge.
http://www.figureskatersonline.com/johnnyweir/interact.html

I never really thought body type could influence an edge that much. He went on to say that poor technique is also a reason, but I just found his quote above was interesting.
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
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Jul 26, 2003
Country
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It is interesting. It certainly would explain why it's women that tend to flutz more, for sure.
 

Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll
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Jun 27, 2003
^^ he's skinny as all get out in that region (not that I *study* it or anything lol)
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
If he is correct then I would suggest that the skaters who can not do a proper lutz or proper flip, just leave them out. Alternatively, let the system adopt the Flutz and Lip as legitimate jumps but with lower base values. The Tech Panel could call those jumps what they are legitemately.

After all there is a comfort zone in executing 3 air rotations with a decent landing. That lower base value should make up for the easier take off.
 

gold12345

Medalist
Joined
Dec 14, 2007
If he is correct then I would suggest that the skaters who can not do a proper lutz or proper flip, just leave them out. Alternatively, let the system adopt the Flutz and Lip as legitimate jumps but with lower base values. The Tech Panel could call those jumps what they are legitemately.

After all there is a comfort zone in executing 3 air rotations with a decent landing. That lower base value should make up for the easier take off.

Isn't a flutz just a flip and a lip just a lutz though?
 

Bennett

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 20, 2007
I am getting really confused by the inconsistency in calling and all the theories discussed on boards.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Isn't a flutz just a flip and a lip just a lutz though?
In the category of "Things I learned by reading Golden Skate"...:laugh:

The majority of the people who are actually skaters say, no, a flutz is not the same as a flip, even though they both take off from the same edge.

There are other quite well defined aspects of the mechanics of the approach and take-off that are different. In particular, technical specialists have no difficulty in distinguishing the two -- hence a flutz never gets called mistakenly as a flip, but rather as a flawed Lutz.

On the topic of hips, it would be interesting to test Johnny's hypothesis by looking at particular skaters.

For instance, both Victoria Volchkova and Elena Sokolova were more curvy than the average figure skater (I'm not sure specifically about the width of their hips), but they both had solid true Lutzes.

Tara Lipinski was straight up and down, but the flutz was her nemisis.

Alissa Czisny and Yu-na Kim are slender skaters who have more of a problem with the flip (as per Weir's thesis.)
 

Bennett

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 20, 2007
Is Johnny referring to the width of the hips? I also wonder if what he is referring to may have something to do with the inside/outside leg turnout.

In any case, I think it hard to see the bone structure from the outside. A well-built body can be just a result of having more fat and more muscles.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Oh no! You've drunk the cool aid!!!!!!!!!
I meant, of course, Ms. Kim is a strikingly beautful and prodigiously talented skater, blessed with a lithe and willowy frame. In accordance with Johnny's thesis, she ought to have a textbook perfect Lutz jump -- and she does! :)
 

Medusa

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 6, 2007
Is Johnny referring to the width of the hips? I also wonder if what he is referring to may have something to do with the inside/outside leg turnout.

In any case, I think it hard to see the bone structure from the outside. A well-built body can be just a result of having more fat and more muscles.
You are quite smart, you know that? I haven't even thought of inside/outside leg turnout.

The form of the hipbones, the angles between the bones etc. is one of the most variable factors in our skeleton. It varies between the sexes, between the human races, it has a lot to do with the upbringing of children (e.g. in Africa certain hip disorders are practically nonexistant because of the way women / people carry the babies around).

I don't know about the relevance of the following facts for figure skating (also haven't found a paper about it), but e.g. in Asian women the HAL (hip axis length), the NSA (neck shaft angle) and the FNW (femoral neck width) are all smaller than in European women - the African women are somewhere between the Asian and the European women. That has some fantastic consequences for Asian women, e.g. is their risk of suffering a hip fracture just 50% of the risk that a European (Caucasian) woman has. But I don't know if these differences could have anything to do with figure skating jumps...

An interesting difference between the sexes is that the muscles and ligaments that stabilise the male pelvis are much stronger and tighter than the ones that stabilise the female pelvis (reasons should be obvious). Since we have a large number of female flutzers but not many male flutzers - is it perhaps easier for men to maintain the outside edge because of the stronger ligaments etc.?

All pure speculation, but it's fun. I can't believe I can't find a decent paper on this...
 

Eevun

Final Flight
Joined
Mar 19, 2008
An interesting difference between the sexes is that the muscles and ligaments that stabilise the male pelvis are much stronger and tighter than the ones that stabilise the female pelvis (reasons should be obvious). Since we have a large number of female flutzers but not many male flutzers - is it perhaps easier for men to maintain the outside edge because of the stronger ligaments etc.?.
You're quite smart too, Medusa! This was really interesting, thanks!

I don't know if I got this right, but a flip with an edge call is a flutz? Just looked throught the protocol from NHK Mens FS. 7/12 skaters have mostly 'e' (one '!') on their flips. 1 got edge call on a Lutz. My brain is to messed up to make a conclusion of this, but maybe someone else can :laugh:
 
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Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Medusa said:
The form of the hipbones, the angles between the bones etc. is one of the most variable factors in our skeleton....
OK, with all that erudition now I am embarrassed to throw in my 2 cents. But I always supposed it was like this. If you have narrow hips (like a man), then your legs are more nearly straight under you, whereas if you have wider hips, then the neck of the femur sticks out more to the side.

http://hippie.nu/~unicorn/tut/img/basics/humananatomy/male-female-skeleton.jpeg

In seems clear in this picture that the lady (on the right) is going to put more stress on her hip sockets by jumping up and down than the man (on the right) will.

As for a Lutz versus a flip, to me it looks really hard for the lady (on the right) to stand on her outside edges.

On the other hand, for a forward fan spiral...

http://opinionhead.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/skeleton.png
 

Bennett

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 20, 2007
All pure speculation, but it's fun. I can't believe I can't find a decent paper on this...

It was very interesting and enjoyable to read! Thank you. You could develop a theory and be the first scholar to write a paper on this topic. Perhaps there would be some academic journal(s) to publish it and I'd be most delighted to read your paper:)

Re: bone structure, I feel that bow-legs also would affect the edges.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
I don't know if I got this right, but a flip with an edge call is a flutz? Just looked throught the protocol from NHK Mens FS. 7/12 skaters have mostly 'e' (one '!') on their flips. 1 got edge call on a Lutz...
An edge call on an attempted Lutz is a flutz. An edge call on an attempted flip is a lip. So the men skaters who got an "e" on their flips, this means that they tried to do a flip (inside edge take-off) but in error slipped over to the outside edge before take-off.

This goes along with Weir's hypothesis that men ought to have better control over their outside edges than their inside edges.

(I am working on an answer to your PM ;) )
 

Eevun

Final Flight
Joined
Mar 19, 2008
An edge call on an attempted Lutz is a flutz. An edge call on an attempted flip is a lip. So the men skaters who got an "e" on their flips, this means that they tried to do a flip (inside edge take-off) but in error slipped over to the outside edge before take-off.

This goes along with Weir's hypothesis that men ought to have better control over their outside edges than their inside edges.

(I am working on an answer to your PM ;) )

Sometimes I see quite clear that they (often the men, I keep a closer watch to their competitions) begin on inside edge and just before take-off they slip over to outside edge, and it's a Lutz! (just watched Kristoffer Berntsson's FS from CoC and he didn't receive an edge call for that) Because I haven't seen a skater skating on the outside edge all the way until the take-off (or I've thought of it wrong).
Thanks for taking your time to a newbie like me :)


Weir's smart, you all are smart! And I think like Bennett, Medusa would make a great paper about this! It's a new found theory! And it's most likely to be true!

(This is great. 4 o'clock in the morning and I'm discussing flutzs and lips :laugh: But I can hardly go to bed now, so close to the answer!)
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Sometimes I see quite clear that they (often the men, I keep a closer watch to their competitions) begin on inside edge and just before take-off they slip over to outside edge, and it's a Lutz!
I am very far from being an expert on these matters (maybe GKelly will help out! :) .) But I think the idea is something like this.

Most defintions and descriptions of the proper technique for a flip jump go something like this one.

http://www.sk8stuff.com/f_recog/recog_j_flip.htm

The flip jump is a toe-assisted jump which has the same take-off and landing edges as the Salchow. It launches off a LBI edge (right toe-pick assist) and lands on the traditional RBO. The normal preparation is quite a bit different however. It is usually entered from a very straight (flat) forward glide on the left foot. The free foot (right) will be held up in the air in front of the skater. Just prior to the jump, the free leg will drop back, tap the ice and push the skater around in a LFO 3-turn, so that he is on a shallow LBI edge. The right foot goes directly behind the skater, picks the ice and “pulls” the skater up into the air.

Some skaters will substitute an RFI-LBI mohawk for the LFO 3-turn prior to the jump.

So there is quite a bit more to the description of the flip jump than just the take-off edge. If a skater does most of those things, but messes up slightly on some part of it (for instance, he might land on the wrong edge), it is still scored as a flip.

If he does all those things except that at the last moment of the take-off he slips over to the outside edge, then according to ISU protocol it is still scored as a flip (not a Lutz), but the skater gets an "e" call and an automatic deduction in GOE. This is what is called informally a "lip."

Many people think this is wrong. They contend that the entire definition of the flip jump is the take-off edge, and nothing else conntributes to the definition. So in this case, the jump should be scored as a Lutz (with no penalty) rather than as a faulty flip (with a penalty on GOE).

This seems to be a minority view in ISU circles. I guess it's like the definition of a horse. If you look up "horse" in the dictionary it says, "a four legged animal that ..." and then goes on to list some other features.

Now suppose a horse had one leg amptutated. So now it is not a "four-legged animal..."

But it is still a horse and not, for instance, a foot-stool, even though the definition of "foot-stool might be, "a three-legged...."

Same thing with a flip. If it looks like a flip and acts like a flip and quacks like a flip -- then it's a flip, despite the wrong take-off edge. (So says the ISU in its wisdom. Others disagree.)

Eevun said:
(just watched Kristoffer Berntsson's FS from CoC and he didn't receive an edge call for that) Because I haven't seen a skater skating on the outside edge all the way until the take-off.
Many wrong edge take-offs are not called. Its up to the Technical Specialist to call what he sees, either an "e" (extreme wrong edge) or a "!" (mild wrong edge), or sometimes no call because the Tech Specialist just didn't see it that way.

About the Lutz, I have seen skaters hold a long outside edge all the way down the ice. But it is a very straight and shallow one, so it is hard to be certain.

To me (an amateur observer, to say the least), the thing that distinguishes a Lutz most dramatically from other jumps is the counterrotation -- the blade is curving one way on the ice, but the skter somehow wrenches back the other way with the toe pick and with the upper body. That's what makes it look so cool, in my humble opinion.

Here is a great one. Even without playing the video, you can see in the still picture, by her shoulders and arms, that she is about to launch into the air spinning counterclockwise even though her skate is curving clockwise. The Lutz is the only jump that is like that.

http://www.sk8stuff.com/f_recog/recog_j_lutz.htm

If a skater cheats and slips over to the inside edge at the last moment, again, this is scored as a Lutz despite the wrong edge and should get an edge call and penalty in GOE. The protocols will show 3Lz e (this is a flutz).

(I apologize for being so long-winded if you already knew all that. Anyway, the argument is between those who think that the take-off edge is the entire definition of the flip and Lutz, and those who think that there is more to it than that.)
 
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Joined
Jul 11, 2003
Isn't a flutz just a flip and a lip just a lutz though?
I think that is the problem, most of the time, because it makes the program have two Flips or two Lutzes and I see the Zayak rule being broken. There is more to those jumps than a wrong edge take off. There is an easier position to do 3 air turns with a comfortable landing than if the skater were to execute a proper lutz or flip.

However, some skaters take off on the flat of the blade so it is neither flutz nor lip. What can we say about that?

I'm not so sure body type has an influence. I would need some anatomy specialists to consider that.
 
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