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Thread: Does Carolina Kostner receive inflated marks?

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    Custom Title Johar's Avatar
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    Does Carolina Kostner receive inflated marks?

    I am asking this for someone who gets to watch alot more skating than I do:

    Does Carolina Kostner get astronomical marks from the judges just for staying on her feet? It doesn't matter if she looks like an awkward seagull during the "artistic" portions of her programs. It doesn't matter if she double foots a lot of her jumps and her one foot landings are wonky 99% of the time. It doesn't matter if she telegraphs her flip and lutz so badly that Western Union should sue for copyright infringement. Nope. The judges love Carolina and if she stands up, she medals.

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    IMO, she does. I just don't "get" her skating style. I mean the girl has great basics that's for sure, but her speed looks so uncontrollable. I will say she does have good jumps when she lands them cleanly (which half of the time she doesn't). Overall it just baffles me why she gets such high marks.

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    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Does Carolina Kostner receive inflated marks?

    No, not at all. In the first place, you are quite right in saying that the IJS does not take off seagull points. So whether we like her style or not -- some people do, some don't -- this does not really factor into the score.

    In her last two outings Carolina got 152.76 points at Skate Canada and 170.72 points at Cup of Russia. This compares to Yuna Kim and Mao Asda scoring in the 190s for their best performances.

    If you look at the protocols, it is hard to see where there is any "inflation" going on. She got credit for the elements she did. She got hit with a < when she underroated her 3T in combination, like any other skater would.

    As for her PCSs. she has gotten in the high 6's pretty consistently this season. At Skate Canada her PCSs for the LP were below Suguri's and Czisny's, and quite a bit below Rochette's.

    Where is the "inflation?"

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    "Hold an edge and look sexy!" museksk8r's Avatar
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    I don't think it's fair to single her out as if she has been the only beneficiary of high PCS marks for not so stellar programs. Brian Joubert, Tomas Verner, Mao Asada, and Miki Ando also come to my mind as examples.

    I personally have found Kostner's placements and scores for the most part to be justified for this skating season throughout the Grand Prix. I can't say the same for the other skaters I've mentioned above, but that's just my opinion.

    Poor Alban Preaubert is the "wuz robbed" skater of the season so far, IMO.
    Last edited by museksk8r; 11-30-2008 at 04:17 PM.

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    6.95 for transitions was her lowest PCS at CoR, ranging up from there to 7.55. That seems high to me, given her habitual number of stumbles and bobbles. I wouldn't give 7.15 for a program with a lot of bobbles, a hands down, etc., for example. Definitely be giving out the -GOE, too -- which she may well have gotten, I'm not gonna go looking up detailed protocols. Anyway, we can nitpick individual results. I guess I'm old school enough to prefer to see a cleaner skate than Carolina generally puts out. I have a general sense of a skater who is overscored, but that is surely subjective.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johar View Post

    [B]Does Carolina Kostner get astronomical marks from the judges just for staying on her feet?
    Even when she falls, like in the SP at COR, it doesn't seem like a big deal. I realize perfectly clean skates from anybody are hard to come by nowadays, but Kostner seems to fare better than most people when she messes up. Her silver medal winning performance at Worlds last year was just frustrating to watch.

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    Throwing tomatoes at corrupt judges Audrey19's Avatar
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    Why Kostner again? I'm not a tech specialist, but I don't think that she is sooo overscored, probably sometimes her marks are higher than deserved, but not always and she isn't the only, most skaters receive generous scores from time to time, so I don't get all this bashing. And she is very artistic indeed, though she might not be liked by everyone.

  8. #8
    Gadfly and Bon Vivant Mafke's Avatar
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    I don't have anything against Kostner but I can't say I find there's that much I enjoy about her skating either.

    She seems fast as the dickens and she doesn't regularly underrotate (the worst of all possible sins in CoP), maybe that's enough for the judges?

    As for PCSs in general, they just make no sense to me. I've given up on trying to understand them as anything but protocal judging placeholders.

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    Beliver in Sasha's Perfect Program Tinymavy15's Avatar
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    I think it is perhaps that she always roatates her jumps fully that she get full credit. Most other skaters tend to underotate when the fall of otherwise mess up.

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    I understand where people are coming from if they think she is overscored in her component marks. SHe does look a bit inelegant and clumsy sometimes and not very refined.
    However, watching her live is something to behold- she skates around the rink like a speed skater and has very deep edges on everything as a result. From what I understand everything is more difficult to do like that, and it takes a lot of stamina and makes the whole thing more exciting. While she is nowhere near a ballerina as some of the others and does not feel the music(in my opnion) the judges reward her for this in the component marks. I guess strictly speaking PCS marks come under artistry.

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    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    She does! and so do all top skaters! She's not alone in that category.

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    My biggest complaint is the high PCS scores Carolina gets in the TR and PE categories. When a skater telegraphs a jump for the entire length of the rink, the TR score should be in the low 5s, not 6.95 as she got for her FS at CoR.

    At CoR, Carolina fell out of her triple loop, fell on a 2a+2t combo, underrotated her 3s, and singled/double-footed her final axel; that sloppy skate got 7.15 for PE.

    At CoR, Rachael Flatt had a near-clean FS with a ratified 3/3 and lots of interesting transitional moves, and she got 6.00 for TR and 6.20 for PE.

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    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckm View Post
    At CoR, Carolina fell out of her triple loop, fell on a 2a+2t combo, underrotated her 3s, and singled/double-footed her final axel; that sloppy skate got 7.15 for PE.
    I have never been completely clear on exactly what the Performance/Execution score is. All the things you mentioned were mistakers on individual technical elements, which should be reflected in the GOEs. (?)

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    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I have never been completely clear on exactly what the Performance/Execution score is. All the things you mentioned were mistakers on individual technical elements, which should be reflected in the GOEs. (?)
    and Skating Ability? What is it doing in the PC scores? The Falls, the URs, the WET offs, have already been judged and scored.

    One simple Presentation score is all that is needed and it will include transitions or put Transitions in the Tech score. Transitions are technical.

  15. #15
    Ice Dance Obsessee lmarie086's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckm View Post
    My biggest complaint is the high PCS scores Carolina gets in the TR and PE categories. When a skater telegraphs a jump for the entire length of the rink, the TR score should be in the low 5s, not 6.95 as she got for her FS at CoR.
    I think that's my complaint as well summed up. I hate seeing a skater (and doesn't matter who it is, I'll dislike seeing it) telegraph almost the entire length of the rink. It is at the expense of choreography and gives a somewhat choppy feel to the program in my eyes.

    I love her speed; it looks amazing on tv (and the computer screen as well but not so much lol) and I can only imagine how powerful it must be in person. She also has very strong basics; I do think she deserve credit for her strengths. But I find IMO, she sacrifices elegance for that speed and it's just somewhat disappointing to watch and see that get high scores sometimes, especially for someone who doesn't understand COP all that well (me!).

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